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 Mark FournierMember
Joined: 06 Jan 2001 Total posts: 15602 Location: Kingston, ON Gender: Male
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 Posted: 01/ 24/ 08 7:46 pm Post subject: Even more Warman evidence - direct from transcripts! |
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What would you do?
Mark Fournier
January 24, 2008
Imagine yourself in an adversarial role in a courtroom, hearing or tribunal. Your opponent declares that you were in a certain parking lot at a certain time on a certain date. You know you weren’t there on that date and time, but you can’t prove it. You have no way of showing that you were sitting home alone at that time reading a book.
Your adversary asks the court to subpoena the parking lot’s security videos so they can be entered as evidence. What would be your reaction to your adversary’s request?
Would you not likely jump to your feet and yell, “Yes!”? Would you not feel a sense of profound relief because you knew the video footage would prove that you had been telling the truth?
Or would you fight tooth and nail to have the motion to subpoena the video evidence that would exonerate you denied? And if you failed to have the subpoena denied, would you then take the position that the issue of whether you were in the parking lot is irrelevant to the case at hand so there is still no need to introduce the exonerating evidence into the court record?
The following quote comes from the Richard Warman vs Marc Lemire Tribunal Transcript, 2007/02/07, Pages 1412-1596. The first paragraph is Ms. Kulaszka speaking, and the rest is a ruling given by the Chairperson. Some portions have been bolded (by us) for emphasis:
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MS KULASZKA: I wondered if the Tribunal could just give me leave to make further submissions on Mr.Warman's motion to quash the subpoena to Rogers?
THE CHAIRPERSON: No. Here's my ruling: At the opening of this hearing, Ms. Kulaszka asked and obtained from the Tribunal a subpoena summoning a representative of Rogers Communications to testify at the hearing into Mr. Warman's complaint.
Ms. Kulaszka indicated that the evidence to be adduced through this witness would help establish that the complainant had made a posting on the Freedomsite message board on September 5th, 2003, containing discriminatory material.
Mr. Warman has now made a motion to quash the subpoena, and requesting that the respondent be prevented from leading any evidence through a Rogers representative, Mr. Klatt, or any other witness, I presume, in regard to this posting.
Mr. Warman points out that neither he nor the Canadian Human Rights Commission entered the posting in question into evidence at this hearing, and that it forms no part of the case of either of the parties.
Interestingly, however, Mr. Warman advised the Tribunal prior to the hearing, that he would personally be relying on the entirety of the Freedomsite message board, a position that was also shared by the Commission.
At the hearing, the Canadian Human Rights Commission opted to enter into evidence only a portion of the messages, which amounted to perhaps a half or so of the total. The September 5th, 2003 posting was not among those that were entered into evidence.
During his cross-examination, Mr. Warman denied having posted this message. He also denied having ever registered the pseudonym related to this posting on the Freedomsite message board, nor having ever used the email address associated with this posting. Mr. Warman contends that the questions put to him in regard to this posting were unrelated to the facts in issue in this case, and went solely to his credibility.
Referring to Sopinka's "The Law of Evidence in Canada", Mr. Warman points out that in such cases, the cross-examiner is bound by the answers given by the witness. They cannot be contradicted through efforts to call further evidence in response.
Ms. Kulaszka contends, for her part, that this is a mischaracterization of her questioning regarding the message board posting; that it is not intended to challenge Mr. Warman's credibility.
To begin with, until the hearing, Mr. Warman and the Commission had held out that all pages on the Freedomsite message board were in breach of section 13 of the Act, which would have included the September 5th, 2003 message. I'm mindful of Mr. Vigna's contention that the Commission adopted this position as a defensive tactic of sorts, to ensure that all options would be left open to it, to bring all the necessary evidence from the Freedomsite website to the attention of the Tribunal.
Nevertheless, the Commission and the complainant made their declaration pursuant to a direct order from the Tribunal to specify which messages they allege constituted discriminatory practice.
Ms. Kulaszka now argues that the last minute refinement of Mr. Warman -- by Mr. Warman and the Commission of their positions, which has the result of excluding from their evidence a discriminatory message that she contends was placed on the respondent's website by the complainant himself, constitutes an abuse of process.
She alleges that in a larger sense, establishing whether Mr. Warman, a human rights complainant, managed to post a discriminatory message on the respondent's website, is relevant to the constitutional defence that she has raised. She contends that the possibility that a complainant can himself post a discriminatory message on a web page, on the basis of which its webmaster may be held liable under Section 13, brings into question the constitutional validity of this provision.
In a similar vein, this type of posting, it is argued, constitutes an attempt to "entrap" or induce others to make similar postings on the web, which would also have some bearing on the constitutional validity of the provision. I'm mindful that the respondent may -- may be able to establish these points from the existing record. Mr. Warman has acknowledged having posted other pseudonyms on both the Stormfront and -- sorry, having posted under pseudonyms on both the Stormfront and VNN message boards. Nevertheless, Ms. Kulaszka insists that there can be no better evidence to support her above-mentioned defences, that through the evidence that relates directly to the message board that is at the heart of the complaint, the Freedomsite message board.
I'm prepared to accept Ms. Kulaszka's submission. However, my decision to allow this evidence is subject to certain very clear conditions.
First, she's not to use this line of questioning as an attack on the character of the complainant. As she herself has argued, what is at issue here are the broader effects of seciont 13 and its application.
Second, she has indicated that she intends to lead evidence from Rogers Communications by way of affidavit. I will not allow this. Mr. Vigna has stated explicitly that he wishes to be afforded the opportunity to cross-examine the Rogers witness. His request is justified. For these reasons, the complainant's motion is dismissed. |
Text bolded for emphasis.
_________________
"If it takes force to impose your ideas on your fellow man, there is something wrong with your ideas. If you are willing to use force to impose your ideas on your fellow man, there is something wrong with you." - Entropy Squared
Last edited by Mark Fournier on 03/ 03/ 08 12:26 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Edward Kennedy
Joined: 14 Apr 2005 Total posts: 16409 Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 01/ 24/ 08 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Once a liar always a liar. Once a coward always a coward. Born a fool, always a fool. |
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Roy Wilson
Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Total posts: 27708 Location: Peterborough Age: 61 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 01/ 24/ 08 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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It isn’t surprising that the commission would use a mole in their operation. What is surprising is they used one with the brain of a real mole.
If this yahoo was doing military recon work he would have lasted maybe 2 days.
Welcome to Kanadar, hire idiots to work for idiots. And the cry like babes when caught.
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| Connie Fournier Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2001 Total posts: 22169 Location: Kingston, Ontario Age: 44 Gender: Female
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| Posted: 01/ 24/ 08 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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We can debate IP addresses until we are blue in the face, but this is the most damning evidence we have seen thus far.
If Warman didn't make that post, why was something so hateful removed from the complaint, and why did he try so hard to have a Roger's subpeona quashed?
Even the Chairman seems to 'get it'.
_________________
"...single men must have access to donor eggs and “gestational carriers.” - David Johnston, Governor General Appointee
(The man Stephen Harper calls "the best of Canada") |
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Roy Wilson
Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Total posts: 27708 Location: Peterborough Age: 61 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 01/ 24/ 08 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Connie Fournier wrote: | We can debate IP addresses until we are blue in the face, but this is the most damning evidence we have seen thus far.
If Warman didn't make that post, why was something so hateful removed from the complaint, and why did he try so hard to have a Roger's subpeona quashed?
Even the Chairman seems to 'get it'. |
You are right the IP thing is moot. Much more damning shit here.
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| Connie Fournier Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2001 Total posts: 22169 Location: Kingston, Ontario Age: 44 Gender: Female
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| Posted: 01/ 24/ 08 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Roy Wilson wrote: | | You are right the IP thing is moot. Much more damning shit here. |
I can't wait to see what his groupies come up with to counter this. I can just see it now....
Warman Kinsella: "It's all Bernard Klatt's fault!" 
_________________
"...single men must have access to donor eggs and “gestational carriers.” - David Johnston, Governor General Appointee
(The man Stephen Harper calls "the best of Canada") |
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Roy Wilson
Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Total posts: 27708 Location: Peterborough Age: 61 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 01/ 24/ 08 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Connie Fournier wrote: | | Roy Wilson wrote: | | You are right the IP thing is moot. Much more damning shit here. |
I can't wait to see what his groupies come up with to counter this. I can just see it now....
Warman Kinsella: "It's all Bernard Klatt's fault!" |
I wouldnt doubt that.
As far as the IP he was stupid , but I still believe this bozo felt nothing would be alowed into evidence. As I said befor, hire a mole but one that doesnt have the brain of a mole ( rodent)
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| Connie Fournier Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2001 Total posts: 22169 Location: Kingston, Ontario Age: 44 Gender: Female
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| Posted: 01/ 24/ 08 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, he definitely didn't want anything in evidence in regard to that posting. The chairman said:
| Quote: | | Mr. Warman has now made a motion to quash the subpeona, and requesting that the respondent be prevented from leading any evidence through a Rogers representative, Mr. Klatt, or any other witness, I presume, in regard to this posting. |
He also deliberately removed from the complaint what had to be the most hateful screed on the whole website!
_________________
"...single men must have access to donor eggs and “gestational carriers.” - David Johnston, Governor General Appointee
(The man Stephen Harper calls "the best of Canada") |
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| Mark Fournier Member
Joined: 06 Jan 2001 Total posts: 15602 Location: Kingston, ON Gender: Male
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| Posted: 01/ 24/ 08 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Roy Wilson wrote: | | You are right the IP thing is moot. Much more damning shit here. |
We are putting together a timeline that will help put this into a clearer perspective.
_________________
"If it takes force to impose your ideas on your fellow man, there is something wrong with your ideas. If you are willing to use force to impose your ideas on your fellow man, there is something wrong with you." - Entropy Squared |
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Roy Wilson
Joined: 04 Apr 2004 Total posts: 27708 Location: Peterborough Age: 61 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 01/ 24/ 08 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Entropy Squared wrote: | | Roy Wilson wrote: | | You are right the IP thing is moot. Much more damning shit here. |
We are putting together a timeline that will help put this into a clearer perspective. |
Thats good , documentation is always important.
As I said before, this clown wasn’t that bright so he should be easy to terminate.
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SUPPORT THE TROOPS THEY KEEP YOU FREE. SUPPORT FARMERS, THEY FEED YOU.
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carfix2000ca
Joined: 19 May 2005 Total posts: 10398 Location: Sodom and Gommorah Age: 49 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 01/ 24/ 08 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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WHen you win the judgement against Warman, Mark, maybe you could ask that he be ordered not to bring any frivolous action against anyone again, the a court or a tribunal.
After all, if a person can be ordered not to post on the internet, someone should be able to be ordered not to witch hunt |
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| Right-Wingnut Joined: 22 Jan 2006 Total posts: 1962 Location: Southern Ontario Gender: Male
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| Posted: 01/ 25/ 08 1:48 am Post subject: |
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Given what is at stake in this entire HRC fiasco, and the implications on the freedoms of future generations if this mayhem is allowed to continue, it would seem that a full-scale judicial inquiry into the goings-on of the CHRC and its provincial counterparts, with no holds or evidence barred, would be in order.
I hope you're listening, Stephen. |
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hunterofvoters
Joined: 21 Jun 2005 Total posts: 4526 Location: Edmonton Gender: Female
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| Posted: 01/ 25/ 08 2:35 am Post subject: |
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Hope everyone is emailing their MP's about this. I expect to see the Conservatives introduce a bill to curb these tribunals when Parliament gets back.
If they don't, my MP is going to hear about it big time.
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One mind/voter at a time.
http://climbingoutofthedark.blogspot.com
Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators. Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
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Peter O'Donnell
Joined: 10 Mar 2005 Total posts: 9072 Location: BC Age: 61 Gender: Male
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| Posted: 01/ 25/ 08 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| There should also be a review of past convictions and fines, and compensation for those wrongly accused and found "guilty" when all they were doing was expressing their point of view on moral issues, and that within the generally held opinions of millions of Canadians who just don't happen to be ultra-leftists. |
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T.G.
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Total posts: 3188 Location: Ontario Gender: Male
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| Posted: 01/ 25/ 08 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| There is so much info scattered all over the place, perhaps it can be collated into a coherent whole. Either way, it looks like Warman - as Tiger Williams used to say - is "done like dinner." |
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