Harper gun registry solution just a "shell game"

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Does C-21 fulfil CPC party policy &quot;promises&quot; as Minister Day contends

NO
15
75%
Yes
5
25%
 
Total votes : 20

Harper gun registry solution just a "shell game"

Postby Wlyonmackenzie » 07/ 30/ 06 9:47 am

Mr. Bernardo alludes to the fact that Harper is marginalizing his core support from the west and his long term house support (mutli-term reform MPs) and placating long held "promises" to them and member-ratified party policy with meagre palcebo "tinkeriing" solutions.

Harper's handlers appear to want to "get these embarassing right wing factions off his back" and move on to the more lucrative practice of harvesting votes from eastern liberal swing voters.....most of which support gun control and don't want to see even unconstitutional, tax sink hole gun laws tinkered with... let alone repealed as had been promised by the CPC.

Also there is ample evidence to presume the new ministers in charge of the gun law changes are intimidated by the power of the police lobby and the entrenched liberal-appointed departmental administrators....both of whom do not want to see their little administrative dynasty tumble with the repeal of C-68 and returning gun law to constitutional confines by decriminalizing non criminal ownership and use. If the CPC totally decriminalizes the non criminal possession of a firearm, multi millions of dollars fall out of the justice and police budgets. This is why they are fighting the CPC on repealing and properly rewriting the firearms law.

C-21 still requires a gun registry and the money needed to administer the data and issue authorizations....you still must report any transaction you do with a gun ( buy-sell-trade) to the police who record it against your licence and update the registry files.....it isstill the requirement to report a gun sale ot purchase under criminal penalty as was the registry...it's just a paperless affair under the CPC plan.....Alan Rock could have voted in favor of this "change"....it is NOT what the CPC promised to do in their policy statements....it is NOT "scrapping the registry" and it is NOT replacing licencing with the former FAC system of background check.

Unless and until I see a written signed promise by the PMO to persue further changes to the firearms act when they have a majority, I will assume we have been had.

Have Canada's firearms owners been sold out again?

Like Bernardo, my gut instinct says yes.



The Old Shell Game

As I write this, Bill C-21 has just been introduced in the House of
Commons. C-21 is a small baby step in the right direction but hardly what is needed to de-fang the Firearms Act. We have been told that it is "symbolic" and "just the first step"but one has to wonder if the gun
community has been the victim of the old shell game.


Certainly, the Conservative Party is aware of our issues... or are
they? I confess to being a little appalled at the distinct lack of
knowledge displayed by many Conservative MPs in regards to the Firearms
Act. 12 (2), (3), (4), (5), (6) are just numbers to our elected
representatives and it sure isn't because they haven't been told. They
have, MANY times.

Maybe it's because they weren't listening? I know many of you have
talked to them and they certainly appear attentive. But I have to
wonder... when they see your lips moving, are they hearing the words or
counting the votes?

Now please don't misunderstand me. People like MP Garry Breitkreuz are
beyond reproach. There are several others too, who have been fighting
for us in the trenches for a long time and are as well versed on the
Firearms Act as any of us. Unfortunately though, these are not the
people in power.


It has been said that a politician only has two jobs. 1) To get
elected. 2) To get re-elected. As cynical as that sounds, it is mostly
true. Many of the old Reformers did not run for public office because
they were politicians at heart. Many of them ran because they were
anti-politician and wanted to make a change in the political make up of
Canada. Of course they were right but unfortunately, many Canadians
didn't feel we needed a change badly enough to vote for Preston and Crew.

There is no doubt Steven Harper noted this. As soon as the election
started we were asked to keep a low profile, almost like a demented
uncle the family is ashamed of.
Of course we did as requested because the thought of Paul (ban the handguns) Martin forming the next
government was too sickening to contemplate, but also because we knew we had much work to do with the Conservative party if they were to form the next government and attempt to fulfill their promises.

We were in action immediately after the election informing the new
Ministers of what needed to be done. We even presented a comprehensive
document to them outlining precisely how they could achieve these things
without going to the House with new legislation. The easy way. We told
them of the urgency required to deal with 12(6) and the simplicity of
dealing with SAPs.

Their response was to completely ignore our recommendations and proceed
with a legislative solution to the long gun registry. A solution that
might even pass. Maybe. At last count 162 MPs would vote to kill the
long gun registry and while that is a majority, it is a slim one,
especially when it means trusting the Liberals, Bloc and NDP to respect
the tenants of a "free vote" and allow their MPs to vote their conscience.

Still, killing the long gun registry is a very good thing and not to be
taken lightly. Certainly it removes the bugaboo of confiscation to a
great degree and simplifies everyone's lives. Way better than Paul
Martin's handgun ban.

This summer, while your MP is in his/her constituency, you need to go
talk to them. Politely, quietly, firmly. Elicit their support for Bill
C-21 but insist they take the next step too. The Firearms Act is still
full of trouble for gun owners and the removal of the long gun registry
makes it only a little less so. We will also be communicating with you
later this summer to advise you on what specific actions we need you to
do to keep these folks on their toes.

I don't like the way C-21 "feels". My gut level intuition tells me the
Conservatives have done just enough (barely) to say "we kept our
promise", now go away! I sure hope I'm wrong (I've been wrong before)
but this whole thing smells like Harper's playing the old shell game on us.


Tony Bernardo
Executive Director
CILA
Last edited by Wlyonmackenzie on 07/ 31/ 06 10:24 am, edited 3 times in total.
Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive; those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - C.S. Lewis, In Freedom .

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Postby Connie Fournier » 07/ 30/ 06 9:52 am

Welcome to the club. We socons have been holding your seats for you.

We're saving room for the anti-Kyoto folks, too.
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Postby bulldog905 » 07/ 30/ 06 9:56 am

Connie wrote:Welcome to the club. We socons have been holding your seats for you.

We're saving room for the anti-Kyoto folks, too.


You beat me to the punch.

Tell Mark not to get too excited about the CWB thing, either. I fell for the shell games on Kyoto that Rona and Steve played, before I woke up to the fact they supported it, and had no intention of stopping it.

Perhaps an independent Alberta is the only way folks there can escape the tyranny of Kyoto and the gun registry.

But, what about the rest of us?
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Postby Connie Fournier » 07/ 30/ 06 10:08 am

Well, I guess it boils down to two questions.

How far people are willing to go in order to keep this government accountable to its conservative base?

And, can the groups with different policy interests work together long enough to accomplish anything of consequence?

So far the old 'divide and conquer' trick has worked like a charm. If socons, gun owners, anti-enviroweenies and the like can't even put aside our differences well enough to coexist on the same political forum, I'm afraid we will be doomed to sit on the sidelines and watch each other be sold out for the sake of power.

There is a lot of brain power on this site. There are things we can do, but we have to have the political will to do it.
"Some of my policing friends would be horrified by the fact that I`ve come to speak to an Anti-Racist Action conference this morning. Some of you are probably horrified by the fact that I just used the words `police`and `friends` in the same sentence." - Richard Warman, July 6, 2005
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Postby Young Tory » 07/ 30/ 06 10:09 am

The CPC should not get a carte blanche from the right. We right-wingers have to mobilize and send a message that if they continue to sell us out, ie SSM, right to have private members at least give some protection to the unborn, Kyoto, the gun registry, we would not be there to vote for them. Right now, PM Harper is taking us for granted. He's assuming that he could drift our party further to the left without any consequences. Be careful Mr. Prime Minister otherwise you might be in for a surprise.
"A nation that kills its own children has no future."- Pope John Paul II (1920-2005)

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Postby Jason Kauppinen » 07/ 30/ 06 10:15 am

Ok.

So people think that the CPC has the votes right now to get a majority vote on scrapping the gun registry.

Ok, back up what you say.

Show me, right here on this thread, which opposition MPs would join in with the CPC,

in numbers that would make a majority,

in voting to scrap the registry.

I won't hold my breath waiting.
Warren Kinsella is the Jar Jar Binks of Canadian Politics

1985 (OPC Minority)/1987 (Loss) /2003 (Loss)/2007 (Loss) --The OPC Red Tory record.

"Back in 1215, if you read Magna Carta Libertatum (my italics; I don’t think they had ’em back then), human rights meant the King was restrained by his subjects. Eight hundred years later, “human rights” CHRC-style means that the subjects get restrained by the Crown, in the form of Queen Jennifer. I liked it better the old way." -Mark Steyn
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Postby Wlyonmackenzie » 07/ 30/ 06 10:36 am

Connie wrote:
Welcome to the club. We socons have been holding your seats for you.


Connie I got my first inclining there was a coup happening when I went to the convention and saw all the old political insider hacks that destroyed the PCC and Reform before...hacks like Cliff Friars and other so-called conservative apparatchiks who promoted the policy of gross compromise and non substantive governing...it made us reject PCC for reform...now this cabal of devious organizational manipulators are in unelected positions of power in the CPC. The populism and grass roots is gone with the ascention of these elitist autocrats.....the policy convention was a cleverly orchestrated and controled staged eevent....I got my tip-off when I arrived there and found that my properly submitted amendments had be "lost" and did not appear on the voting docket.....we had to raise a point of order and present duplicates to prove we had a legitimate amendment to vote on.

we spoke to our amendment on the firearms policy and made it clear that both the registry and licence systems criminalized non criminal activities and had to go.....our amended policy passed by a 99.4% margin of voting delegates in the justice issues balloting and by 99% in the general final delegate balloting.....pretty good direction as to where the members wanted the caucus to go on firearms issues...remove the long gun registry and replace licencing with a non criminalizing police creened certification.

What we have in bill C-21 is an outrage to the written and ratified policy from the party membership.

I can see future "policy conventions" mirroring the scripted stage plays the Liberals run...my God I didn't expect the rot to set in so fast...less than a year and I can't tell this caucus from the Mulroney caucus.

I confirmed something was up when I saw all the old reform MPs marginalized and disempowered in the CPC caucus. In the case of Garry Breitkreuz, here is a loyal party man who held a seat for Reform, CA and CPC for over 10 years. He has religiously supported his party leader. He also single handedly brought down the fraud of the liberal gun registry...he is probably the most knowlegable person on the federal gun law in Parliament ....yet when Harper took power Garry was marginalized and keep out of the loop.

Not only was he not appointed to tackle scrapping the long gun registry, he wasn't even appointed as an advisor to Day or Towes on the file....and to make matters worse, they hired an ex liberal police lobbyist who had lobbied to pass the gun laws we are trying to dismantle to advise Day on the matter!!!

It wasn't until a letter storm from outraged party members and gun owners hit caucus and the PMO that Garry was reluctantly put on a symbolic "all party committee" to assess changes to the firearms laws....even so Garry was as surprised as the rest of us when they announced C-21...he was out of the loop in its drafting....the bill was cobbled together in a Vacuum of liberal department wonks and the minister.

Not only have I resigned from my party work and office over this betrayal, I won't be financially backing the CPC and I am encouraging other firearms owners to do likewise I will be actively promoting a libertarian independent candidate in my riding...and I do not intend to comply with the petty tinkering to the registry the CPC has done any more than I would comply with the unconstitutional Liberal laws.

Frankly if they think they can screw over a lot of responsible firearms owners who stuck with this party for over a decade to have the registry scraped and licencing decriminalized, ...well....frig em!

Screwing firearms owners a second time like this will spread non compliance even wider.
Last edited by Wlyonmackenzie on 07/ 30/ 06 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive; those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. - C.S. Lewis, In Freedom .

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Postby bulldog905 » 07/ 30/ 06 10:45 am

I agree with almost everything you say, Wlyonmackenzie, except this:

Frankly if they think they can screw over a lot of responsible firearms owners who stuck with this party for over a decade to have the registry scraped and licencing decriminalized, ...well....frig em!


You, and other firearms owners have not stuck with "this party" for over a decade.

You supported the Reform and Canadian Alliance from 1993-2003.

Today's CPC is the resurrection of the PC party. The only concession genuine conservatives got from the Red Tories in the merger, was the dropping of the prefix 'Progressive' in front of 'Conservative'.

It would have been better to have achieved this in policy, as opposed to a name change.

PC certainly describes today's party.(Both meanings).
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Postby Jason Kauppinen » 07/ 30/ 06 10:47 am

Ok, that's two people so far who have failed to skate up to centre ice and face off with my simple challenge.

How many more will there be?

Stay tuned kids.
Warren Kinsella is the Jar Jar Binks of Canadian Politics

1985 (OPC Minority)/1987 (Loss) /2003 (Loss)/2007 (Loss) --The OPC Red Tory record.

"Back in 1215, if you read Magna Carta Libertatum (my italics; I don’t think they had ’em back then), human rights meant the King was restrained by his subjects. Eight hundred years later, “human rights” CHRC-style means that the subjects get restrained by the Crown, in the form of Queen Jennifer. I liked it better the old way." -Mark Steyn
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Postby Connie Fournier » 07/ 30/ 06 11:05 am

Jason Kauppinen wrote:Ok, that's two people so far who have failed to skate up to centre ice and face off with my simple challenge.

How many more will there be?

Stay tuned kids.


Did you even read what Wlyonmackenzie just wrote? WLM has been one of Stephen Harper's staunchest defenders on FD, and he gave some really solid reasons as to why he feels sold out.

He isn't the only one, either. Ipberg has also left the party.

At some point you have to take your fingers out of your ears and stop singing long enough to realize there is a problem.
"Some of my policing friends would be horrified by the fact that I`ve come to speak to an Anti-Racist Action conference this morning. Some of you are probably horrified by the fact that I just used the words `police`and `friends` in the same sentence." - Richard Warman, July 6, 2005
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Postby Mark Fournier » 07/ 30/ 06 11:11 am

Jason Kauppinen wrote:Show me, right here on this thread, which opposition MPs would join in with the CPC,

in numbers that would make a majority,

in voting to scrap the registry.

I won't hold my breath waiting.

Conversely, show me, right here on this thread, which opposition MPs would not join in with the CPC,

in numbers that would make a majority,

in voting to scrap the registry.

I won't hold my breath waiting.
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Postby littleharbour » 07/ 30/ 06 11:13 am

Connie wrote:
Jason Kauppinen wrote:Ok, that's two people so far who have failed to skate up to centre ice and face off with my simple challenge.

How many more will there be?

Stay tuned kids.


Did you even read what Wlyonmackenzie just wrote? WLM has been one of Stephen Harper's staunchest defenders on FD, and he gave some really solid reasons as to why he feels sold out.

He isn't the only one, either. Ipberg has also left the party.

At some point you have to take your fingers out of your ears and stop singing long enough to realize there is a problem.


Well said Connie. If Harper could get his entire caucus to vote for real repeal of the gun registry, I have no doubt that he could get the numbers he needs from the Liberals. He'd probably get 10 from Atlantic Canada alone. The Liberals are not going to risk going to an election in a weakened state and certainly not over an issue like gun control, which plays more into the BQ and NDP plans. Harper needs to carry the fight to the other parties on this issue and force them to back down.
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Postby Jason Kauppinen » 07/ 30/ 06 11:14 am

Connie wrote:
Jason Kauppinen wrote:Ok, that's two people so far who have failed to skate up to centre ice and face off with my simple challenge.

How many more will there be?

Stay tuned kids.


Did you even read what Wlyonmackenzie just wrote? WLM has been one of Stephen Harper's staunchest defenders on FD, and he gave some really solid reasons as to why he feels sold out.

He isn't the only one, either. Ipberg has also left the party.

At some point you have to take your fingers out of your ears and stop singing long enough to realize there is a problem.


Did anyone read what I just wrote?

If people here think they can do better than whats been done up to this point then they can step up to the freaking plate and show all of us how they could do it better.

Who should be doing it?
What should be done?
Where should it be done?
When should it be done?
Why do it that way?
How should it be done?

Putting forward requests without accompanied, realistic means is just spouting slogans, which is good enough.... if you live in 1960's China.

Canada, and Free Dominion, and even the people making these requests all deserve higher standards of performance.
Warren Kinsella is the Jar Jar Binks of Canadian Politics

1985 (OPC Minority)/1987 (Loss) /2003 (Loss)/2007 (Loss) --The OPC Red Tory record.

"Back in 1215, if you read Magna Carta Libertatum (my italics; I don’t think they had ’em back then), human rights meant the King was restrained by his subjects. Eight hundred years later, “human rights” CHRC-style means that the subjects get restrained by the Crown, in the form of Queen Jennifer. I liked it better the old way." -Mark Steyn
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Postby Connie Fournier » 07/ 30/ 06 11:25 am

Jason Kauppinen wrote:If people here think they can do better than whats been done up to this point then they can step up to the freaking plate and show all of us how they could do it better.


Well it's pretty hard to step up to the 'freaking plate' in this party. When I attempted to do that by running in a policy committee election, they quietly cancelled the election and appointed their friends instead.

Show me where the 'freaking plate' is, convince them to let me play, and I'll be there.
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Postby Wlyonmackenzie » 07/ 30/ 06 11:26 am

Connie wrote:Well, I guess it boils down to two questions.

And, can the groups with different policy interests work together long enough to accomplish anything of consequence?

If socons, gun owners, anti-enviroweenies and the like can't even put aside our differences well enough to coexist on the same political forum, I'm afraid we will be doomed to sit on the sidelines and watch each other be sold out for the sake of power.

There is a lot of brain power on this site. There are things we can do, but we have to have the political will to do it.


I'm unaware that there are any real differences. Most here were reformers or reluctant PCs because there was always an active element of populism and grass roots democracy at play in these organizations.

Regarless of your single issue axe grinding the common ground is this:

We all want Open accessable, responsible accountable leadership and an end to unstated unilateral political agendas in federal politics.

We all want an end to elitism and staism in our leaders.

We all want a return to constitutional federalism. populist policymaking and grass root democratic refom.

We all agree the concept that social justice, and a civil society stems government serving the people and not the reverse

We all agree the concept that the government which governs least governs best

We all want a system all government/public funtionaries and institutions and acts must be accountable to a constitution which clearly defines the limits of government and the rights of citizens

These are the concepts that brought the diverse single issue activists together in Reform then CA and now CPC....but CPC has been hijacked again by those with personal agendas that are not linear with the will of the membership.

We have been betrayed again by elites.

New party time?

Or time to rethink your political colors.

These issues are NOT about left and right, conservative or liberal ...they are about principle or corruption, freedom or state bondage, civil society or elitist treachery.

I think people should stop thinking in terms of being a good liberal or a good conservative and think more in terms of being a good and responsible citizen....and you can't be that when you form into little political tribes each lobbying the government or a party to use the coersive power of the state to suppress or damage people who think differnetly than you.

Government has become monolithic, intrisive and reponsive only to special interests....thei leviathan has to be put back into pandora's box before its statist power agendas and partisan factionalization tear this civil society apart and make the constitution a worthless piece of paper which they trespass upon routinely.

I'm willing to stand along side ANYONE who sees the real enemy and is willing to fight......and the real enemy of the Canadian people does not live in Caves in Afghanistan...it lives in posh surroundings in Ottawa and you do not elect it...you only elect its temporary symbolic boss every 4 years. Our enemy is system-entrenched unaccountable power which has an unstated agenda....and this common ground transcends all partisan lines.

Either you want to willingly surrender your freedom, individual and national socereignty and free will to autocratic oligarchs or you want to fight to remain free of the tendancy of ALL governments, institutions and unelected policy cabals to become corrupt and unresponsive.

There is your common ground.
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