What neo-conservative is - and what it isn't

[Protectionist]

Protectionist Ask

Have you read the Culture of Critique by Dr. Kevin Macdonald and what do you think about it?

I have read it on line, and I think it is an anti-semitic work.

MacDonald does raise accurate observations about the organized lobby groups, and the history behind massive immigration, but then he gets rather paranoid and gets into racist generalizations, evolutionary psychology and a conspiratorial mindset.

Any truths he may state, are overshadowed by this.

Pro versus anti, mine versus yours, eat versus starve, reproduce versus don't,...science is Occam's Razor ... me, mine, us, ours = evolution and natural selection ... herding instinct versus being alone ... there can certainly be multiple Occam's razors ... but make no mistake, science is Occam's Razor.

[Splendor Sine Occasu]

Pro versus anti, mine versus yours, eat versus starve, reproduce versus don't,...science is Occam's Razor ... me, mine, us, ours = evolution and natural selection ... herding instinct versus being alone ... there can certainly be multiple Occam's razors ... but make no mistake, science is Occam's Razor.

[goldhound]

This post in response to Monoprise.........
I have long been a friend of the USA and i state this so there will be no misunderstanding when i say that....... the patriotic drum beating and loud graphics on your posts give the feeling that you are belittling anything not "American" and i find it offensive.
Americans seem to be welcome here on a "Canadian" forum, and that is fine by me. So, what is your point?
In the context of the original post (sorry i got off topic) does anyone truly fit a mold? Neo Con, So Con, Blue Con, Red Con, ad nauseum?

[JBG]

This post in response to Monoprise.........
I have long been a friend of the USA and i state this so there will be no misunderstanding when i say that....... the patriotic drum beating and loud graphics on your posts give the feeling that you are belittling anything not "American" and i find it offensive.
Americans seem to be welcome here on a "Canadian" forum, and that is fine by me. So, what is your point?
In the context of the original post (sorry i got off topic) does anyone truly fit a mold? Neo Con, So Con, Blue Con, Red Con, ad nauseum?

I join in that, Goldhound. I know you and most of the posters here are pro-American. There is no need for a militaristic display aimed at friends.

[Monorprise]

Monorprise

Don't get all tied up in that stuff...

Paleoconservatism is a fancy way of saying "traditionalist" and "protectionist" and being "ultra right-wing" about it.

ie you're a religionist, or a racialist, or a culturalist, or all three or either of two.

I'd probably classify you as a respectable, proud, paleoconservative.

Neoconservative is a fancy way of saying traitor.

I've heard this term uses more and more and more, dispute the fact that it is in it self a contradiction in terms!
And the explanation describing a “neo conservative” in it self is ridicules! You don’t have to share the same believes or same proportions to be “new” in fact the basic premise of conservative is to want to conserve, hold on to what we have. The definition of that is based upon a relative self defined terms based upon the history of what is relevant, in the case of your “neo Conservative” I don’t see the contradiction here!
I don’t see how their “traitors” in fact in many ways their views are a lot more historically reprehensive than that of your “paleoconservative”, and that’s what bothers me. Ya’ll claming to have the only “legitimate view”, in defining what is defining a conservative yet in utter neglect by the basic meaning of that term, being relative, and by no means universal!!!
I don’t want to be called a: “paleoconservative” and I don’t want to be called a “neo-conservative” you are not in a position to decide what is new , what is right, and what is wrong, nor are you nor anyone else in a position to decide what is indeed the standard of conservative and what is not! As I’m trying to point out, ya’ll are clearly getting it entirely wrong, on the principles of American conservatives!!
So don’t you dare call me a “paleo-conservative” or “neo-conservative”, because I like you am neither! Because nether can be fairly determined to actual exist, or be classified as separate, by anyone!! And I do not acknowledge the differences ya’ll specified as at all valid!!
This is a bigoted fictional term!!! And I want to be called by nether of them, simply as that which I know I am conservative.

[Protectionist]

Pro versus anti, mine versus yours, eat versus starve, reproduce versus don't,...science is Occam's Razor ... me, mine, us, ours = evolution and natural selection ... herding instinct versus being alone ... there can certainly be multiple Occam's razors ... but make no mistake, science is Occam's Razor.

The basic sciences today (Physics, Math, Chemistry, Biology) has the fewest number graduate students of all the disciplines, yet the most demand; I wonder why that's the case?

[Monorprise]

Pro versus anti, mine versus yours, eat versus starve, reproduce versus don't,...science is Occam's Razor ... me, mine, us, ours = evolution and natural selection ... herding instinct versus being alone ... there can certainly be multiple Occam's razors ... but make no mistake, science is Occam's Razor.

The basic sciences today (Physics, Math, Chemistry, Biology) has the fewest number graduate students of all the disciplines, yet the most demand; I wonder why that's the case?

Over Legislation, and mind sets. as well as the apparent direction of our technological needs, and the underutilization of computers to compensate. Which is probably in large part due to the shortage of programmer to program them correctly, so that they can better do this. In large part the American education system has been going down the tub because of unions, foolish attends by liberals at federalization of the education system via the stick and carrot approach which has ended in a net loss, in theses areas. As the education of children is largely depended upon local needs and interest not that of national priorities. Each region has its own assents and its own shortages. That cant be resolved unfortunately, across the board. Yet liberals have made great efforts to try and control that as with just about everything else’s in government. and the people of theses nations have allowed them to try and do so. By demanding results from them who are unable to do so correctly.
As Ronald Reagan said, we have and are asking government to do things, government has no business, or any real ability to do it self!! As a result the natural consequences are high wasteful spending with lesser and lesser results.

[Protectionist]

Pro versus anti, mine versus yours, eat versus starve, reproduce versus don't,...science is Occam's Razor ... me, mine, us, ours = evolution and natural selection ... herding instinct versus being alone ... there can certainly be multiple Occam's razors ... but make no mistake, science is Occam's Razor.

The basic sciences today (Physics, Math, Chemistry, Biology) has the fewest number graduate students of all the disciplines, yet the most demand; I wonder why that's the case?

Over Legislation, and mind sets. as well as the apparent direction of our technological needs, and the underutilization of computers to compensate. Which is probably in large part due to the shortage of programmer to program them correctly, so that they can better do this. In large part the American education system has been going down the tub because of unions, foolish attends by liberals at federalization of the education system via the stick and carrot approach which has ended in a net loss, in theses areas. As the education of children is largely depended upon local needs and interest not that of national priorities. Each region has its own assents and its own shortages. That cant be resolved unfortunately, across the board. Yet liberals have made great efforts to try and control that as with just about everything else’s in government. and the people of theses nations have allowed them to try and do so. By demanding results from them who are unable to do so correctly.
As Ronald Reagan said, we have and are asking government to do things, government has no business, or any real ability to do it self!! As a result the natural consequences are high wasteful spending with lesser and lesser results.

Monoprize, I think you could benefit by learning about Occam's Razor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Science teaches us to see everything, but when it comes to making decisions, we use Occam's Razor.

[JBG]

I was hoping for some meritorious debate on an important subject. I made posts in that direction.

This thread has seriously degenerated.

[Ipberg2]

You might be a neconservative if you support balanced budgets through flat taxes.

You might be a neconservative if you support private market solutions to public policy failures

Aw heck, and you might be a neconservative if
you support unfettered global free trade

Golly, if you think it's reasonable to act unilaterally to protect your nation from terrorists and dictators that might have WMDs in spite of whimpers from the United Nations then you just might be a neoconservative.

yup

[DrWright]

This was a mispost, but since it's up:

Mr Walsh's notion that traditional conservatism embraces a foreign policy of colonial expansionism is wrong. Traditional conservatism embraces isolationism, tariffs, protectionism, etc.

The problem with these lables is that they often don't cross borders well.

I mean I could say neo con = red tory

however what passes for being conservative in manitoba would be rabidly socialist in other areas.

aahhhhh

I figure mark steyn calls himself conservative and so do I.

[iamitis]

Look, neoconservatiism isn't left-liberal of any fashion. I'm sympathetic to social conservatives, however most neocons also take a market approach to social issues. Quite frankly, the marriage cons and pro-life cons aren't doing such a good job of establishing an effective market for thier particular views.

Secondly, for the neocon, in the absence of any great demand for remedies to various social ills, we are less likely to spend capital on issues that might affect our standing on the issues we ourselves are invested in (i.e. war on terror, spreading democracy, global capitalism). It would ill behoove our interests to be cast as anti-gay or anti-choice. We already have our work cut out for us on the debates we're having, we could hardly do it effectively if our detractors can connect us to issues that are worthy and unfairly maligned but labelled extremist. Similarily, how effective would the pro-lifers argument be if he also supported neocon military doctrines. Not too effective, I would think.

As long as socons are percieved, right or wrong, as extremist the neocon label suits me just fine and if being subject to the socon moral superiority complex will keep them from running off and doing something stupid, that too, is fine. A neocon sees the reality, applies it the goal and moves forward. That's how we role.

[bulldog905]

Neo conservatives, or at least the originators of, are the linear descendants of the Trotskyist wing of the Communist movement.

Remember that saying: "I was country, before country was cool"?

We REAL conservatives feel the same way. And we don't believe the NEOS are conservatives.

[iamitis]

We REAL conservatives feel the same way. And we don't believe the NEOS are conservatives.

That's probably true, are you REAL cons still defending the throne and the aristocracy? And I hate commies. I wish Trotsky were still alive so a real patriot could shove an ice pick in his head, not that grease ball Stalin.

[Ipberg2]

We REAL conservatives feel the same way. And we don't believe the NEOS are conservatives.

And don't forget about the regional angle: conservatism has a different flavour in Toronto's bedroom suburbs than it does in Peace River Country, Alberta or in Newfoundland, etc.