| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
 truegritJoined: 29 May 2005 Total posts: 240 Gender: Male
|
 Posted: 06/ 25/ 05 9:20 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| LondonLady wrote: | Still no proof that we think we can make prophecies come true if its not God's will or timing for such to occur, still no proof we believe God needs a nudge in our direction.
Of course, Christians had absolutely nothing to do with the First Zionist Congress or the Balfour Declaration creating Israel in the first place...but we're suddenly to blame when Jews naturally want to go to Israel, something they've referred to every Passover for two thousand years??
Keep huntin' True Grit  |
Right, in this case Christians have nothing to do with Jews returning to Israel - except for the fact that they're paying for it.
Re: 'Huntin', I thought a direct quote from an evangelical admitting they were facilitating Israel's settlement of occupied territories thinking it would hasten the rapture would suffice. Sorry. I'll try to find a video of Falwell, Robertson and the entire U.S. Republican Senate dressed in Satan outfits, singing a choral version of Blondie's 'rapture'.
| LondonLady wrote: | All I will say is that YOU used the word "compel" and NOT "fault."
If it has ventured past the cordial you have yourself to thank, blaming innocent victims for their own slaughter. |
You yourself noted the difference between Palestinians in the occupied territories and their 'law abiding' cousins residing in Israel. IMHO, the conditions under which they live plays a part in their attitude towards Israel and the actions they take. I did not say they were justified in killing Jews or that the Jews deserved it. (2:1 you'll be calling me an anti-Semite in the next post)
| LondonLady wrote: | As for the "fingerpointers" Falwell and Robertson, do you think they have a right to free speech? Do you think God (if you believe He exists) would be incapable of ever judging sin as He sees fit?
And would you see any difference in GOD bringing judgement to America, and terrorists carrying out their own self-appointed version of justice?
"Deserved" from the terrorists perspective, or God's? I see quite a difference. Notice, neither Falwell or Robertson said the terrorists were justified or right for doing what they did, did they? They said America got what IT deserved, not what the terrorists deserved to do to them. |
Nice try LondonLady. I take it then that you do not consider me part of their kind? - Thanks!
| LondonLady wrote: | | Many of the Palestinians who were in Israel when independence was declared in 1948 were originally from somewhere else. |
As were many of the Jews. As residents during the 'birth' of Israel I think they should all be entitled to citizenship.
| LondonLady wrote: | There has never been a nation of Palestine. There is no Palestinian language, culture of religion other than Arabic/Islamic. They were Arabs from Jordan, Syria, Egypt, many of whom came to Israel to work when Jews began resettling the land and making it prosperous.
There are approximately 400,000 Palestinians who were originally refugees, and over 800,000 Jewish refugees. No one cares about them or suggests they be given a homeland within Arab nations. |
I'll ignore the 'no such thing as Palestine' flak for the time being. (Incidentally, next time someone starts an 'Alberta independence' thread, I'll be looking for your post arguing there is no basis for separation since they have no distinct language or culture)
Yes, they have a mess to sort out regarding the refugees and right of return. As someone suggested earlier, the best approach would be monetary compensation. And I see no reason why this shouldn't include claims from both sides.
The most important issue, in my mind, is that the Palestinians in the occupied territories have no right to vote. Israel, as the de facto governing body in these territories needs to decide how to address this issue. How they choose to resolve this problem will dictate the final outcome. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Sponsor
|
Use PayPal to make regular monthly $20 donations to the free speech cause - quit any time! Or make a one time donation!
|
 |
Maikeru
Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Total posts: 4374 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Gender: Male
|
| Posted: 06/ 25/ 05 7:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LondonLady wrote: |
Your constant irrelevant reassertion that "the PLO were not famous before 1972" has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever, and makes it appear as if you are trying to deny the obvious: The PLO came into existence with the stated goal of destroying Israel PRIOR to the Israeli winning of ANY lands not given to it by the U.N. |
The 1964 PLO Charter points to they being the in-house vanguard of the Nasser-led efforts to eradicate Israel, as part and parcel of his overall objective to unite Arabia under the banner of a 'United Arab Republic'.
L to R 'handsome' Khaddafy of Lybia, 'hit-man' Arafat c/w Raybans, ' pharoah' Nasser of Egypt, and King Hussein of Jordan.
Nasser was largely responsible for the overthrow of King Farouk in 1952, directly responsible for nationalizing the Suez canal in 1956, and for leading the efforts to 'liberate' Palestine/eradicate Israel.
Unlike the Jews, who had significant organizational prowess behind their efforts to establish a state of Israel, and who had been actively working towards that end for some 5 decades, the leading figurehead opposing them within the mandate was the rather flaky but effective
Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, also a
Pan-Arabist and Nazi lapdog.
It is clear, upon delving into the history of the region, that after the demise of the Ottoman Empire due WW1, and up to WW2, the dominant influences acting upon regional statehood were England and France.
During WW2, Nazi Germany became a key player, after WW2 the newly born UN adopted Britains role as king-maker, and, after Nasser's star rose in 1954, Russia's influence increased dramatically.
By 1954, Churchill's 1922 'lines in sand' and the UN sponsored two-state Palestinian Mandate solution had hardened into state boundaries, so much so that Pan-Arabist/Ba'athist objectives were foiled as much by Arab states themselves as by the existence of an Israeli state.
To apply the view that the 1964 PLO Charter was key to events is a revisionist viewpoint implying that the full influence of the PLO following it's 1988 Declaration of Independence was in effect at it's inception.
| Quote: | | In other words, the Palestinian assertion that there will be peace once Israel returns the disputed lands IS FALSE, since their goal of annihilating Israel was made quite clear BEFORE Israel possessed any Muslim lands. |
That statement is self-contradictory if 'disputed' lands means the same as 'Muslim' lands. As well, it posits that stated objectives of the PLO under Nasser's influence, and after the '67 war, Arafat's, are cast in stone.
They are not, as the 1978 Peace Treaty with Egypt, which repudiated both Nasser's Pan-Arabist aims and Egypt's denial of an Israeli state clearly indicates.
Arafat's death releases the Palestinian cause from the bondage to objectives he had taken up in the name of that cause, and first laid down by Gamel Abdel Nasser.
| Quote: |
Egypt, Jordan and Syria invaded Israel within hours of its declaration of independence in 1948. It is doubtful Egypt would have done so without the assistance of Syria. |
All true. I am convinced that the prospect of Arab armies rolling through the Palestinian Mandate looking for Jews to slaughter was more terrifying to Arab inhabitants than to Jews hardened in the hell that was Nazi Europe.
The various 'tribes', if you will, making up the populations of surrounding states, are not known for their kindness towards on another, let alone Jews, and the spectre of pillage and rape associated with war - by either side - was not lost on Arab inhabitants who had farms and vulnerable families.
| Quote: | | After Nasser's death, Egypt this time led the 1973 war against Israel under Sadat, the "peacemaker." Syria continued on fighting into 1974 even after a ceasefire was negotiated. I hardly think it was Egypt which was the main anti-Israeli force, but it hardly matters. ALL the ME states are committed to Israel's destruction. |
It very much matters. Egypt ceased being the main driving force behind denial of Israel's existence, became the first Arab state to officially and publicly, recognise Israel as a state, and negotiated agreed upon boundaries which remain honoured some 3 decades later.
| Quote: | | The British were preventing thousands of persecuted Jews who had no where else to go from immigrating into Israel, causing the deaths of thousands. |
They were also acting as the party responsible for maintaining public order.
The earlier analogy I posted of the genocidal turmoil which followed the British withdrawal from India, and foreseen by Churchill, was mirrored in the PM, and, although less bloody, saw the same dramatic relocation of peoples.
There remain 100 million Muslims in India, just as there remain Arabs in the PM.
| Quote: | | Even as the Irgun prepared to bomb the King David Hotel, they notified the British of their intents. If only Palestinian terrorists would be so thoughtful. |
That view is unworthy of agreement due posing that the one is in any way less reprehensible than the other, in effect to victims.
| Quote: | | Palestinian refugees from Israel had over 20 countries which could easily have accomodated them. Historically, Jews have had none. |
Including their own, by UN intent, and had they the quality of leadership as did the Jews then, might have forestalled the military attacks by neighbouring states which in turn caused the ME to devolve into constantly warring states and terrorist organizations.
| Quote: |
Israel withdrew from the security zone in Lebanon as a good will gesture back to 1929 borders ( borders between Israel and Lebanon historically always very fluid if not non-existent, southern Lebanon and Palestine were considered a southern Syrian province under the Ottomans) |
Israel's borders, as you have evidenced as being non-existent in Palestinian textbooks, rely on official recognition by and of neighbour states.
Syria's withdrawal from Lebanon, itself a direct result of America's gun-boat diplomacy, paved the way for an independent Lebanon, and,
an independent Palestine.
| Quote: | | Again, it would be unreasonable to hope that Hamas, Hezbollah and their patron Iran would not escalate efforts to more aggressively attack Israel since they would be in a far better tactical position to do so. |
I cannot share your doomsday despair here. You speak of atomic devastation as controllable to specific cities, when the actual impact would make the ME uninhabitable to any survivors.
Any Iranian attack on Israel, especially atomic, would reap bitter consequence from outside Israel as well.
It is clear from the article that Israel's response and security were amply magnified by both America and the UN. Syria is getting uncomfortably close to having to shed conforming views with the Hezbollah in the same way as Jordan shed the PLO.
| Quote: | | Apples to apples oranges to oranges, compare how stateless Jewish terrorists were treated (Irgun was banned, terrorists were jailed) and how Palestinian terrorists of that same time were treated (no punishment whatsoever, they were lauded as heroes). |
Again, Israeli machinery of state is the significant difference.
| Quote: | | And again, you're ignoring the INTENTS behind the two actions. Israeli "terrorism" prior to statehood was largely self-defensive (i.e. combating the the Arab riots of the 1920's) while Arab terrorism was to prevent any further Israeli immigration and to attempt to expel those who were there. |
Israel's current 'immigration' into the Gaza strip and West Bank drives Arab terrorism today, but it's a stretch to say that the settlements are a 'self-defensive' measure rather than an offensive act whose ultimate objective is to expel those who are there.
| Quote: | They don't totally control these staging grounds right now. Imagine when they DO.
Will all Jews have to leave the Gaza and West Bank? Isn't that what the article I posted is complaining about? |
I imagine that when Palestinians gain machinery of state they will be less, not more, inclined to militant activities, having observed the futility of Arab states doing so to date.
| Quote: | | Who compensated Israel for compensating the refugees? |
There were a significant number of donors worldwide assisting Israeli efforts to establish and maintain a viable state.
| Quote: | | Your numbers regarding Palestinian refugees are wrong. |
I sourced the maps from the same website as you quoted your figures.
| Quote: | | Most Arab refugees never left Palestine at all; they traveled a few miles to the other side of the truce line, remaining inside the vast Arab nation that they were part of linguistically, culturally and ethnically. |
Nasser would love the reference to 'vast Arab nation that they were part of linguistically, culturally and ethnically' . The fact remains that the truce line became a de facto divide between what were to become, in the UN's eyes, sister states.
| Quote: |
Abbas is basically the same as Arafat in terms of philosophy, ethics, beliefs and pragmatism.
His demand for right of return and for Jerusalem as capital of a Palestinian state show his true intents. |
I'll remind you that Anwar Sadat was highly supportive of Nasser, and highly placed among Nasser's elite.
Yet he grew wary of Russia's growing influence after failing to defeat Israel militarily, and losing control of the Suez Canal, a vital part of Egyptian economy and it's world influence.
| Quote: | That's exactly the point I am making.
Israel's small size makes it necessary for at most, three cities to be vaporized and the Zionist entity problem is gone. If Israel fired double that number there would still be massive Muslim populations left. That is the very reasoning the Mullahs have stated. |
Have the mullahs told the 100 million 'martyrs' who and where they are yet ?
| Quote: |
Remember a guy called Hitler? |
Do I ever...but that's another thread.
_________________
“There were not six million Jews murdered; there was one murder, six million times.” — Holocaust survivor Abel Herzberg
"Let all the babies be born. Then let us drown those we do not like." - Chesterton - |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hdm
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Total posts: 2881 Location: East Coast USA Gender: Unknown
|
| Posted: 06/ 26/ 05 10:58 pm Post subject: Century 22 |
|
|
Some very interesting posts on this thread. Unfortunately, they're coming too fast for me to respond to them all...
re: Adimral Beez - 21Jun05 10:51 am
| Admiral Beez wrote: | White folks have already had their Renaissance; this was when we threw the Mongols and Moors out of Europe in the 13th and 15th centuries and subsequently spread ourselves across the world crushing any native or non-white fellow in our way.
The 19th century was Britain's Century
The 20th was America's
The 21st will be China's, with a sidedish of India
The time of the white man's dominance over national affairs in all countries is coming to an end. We had a good run, over five centuries of global domination. Of course convincing a white European living in Canada that his time has come will be as successful as telling a Roman in 400 AD that his descendants will soon live under the Germans and later Asiatics; you just can't believe it's possible. But, all things must come to pass. I'm curious to see who will rule the 22nd century; likely none we suspect. |
Perhaps there's room for more than one dominant power.
Mainland China impresses me more as a regional power than a global power. That may eventually change, but today, for now anyway, China's main foreign policy objectives don't seem to extend far beyond its own front door, i.e. the (Taiwanese) Republic of China, and some minor disputes with Japan, Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, and Brunei over various small islands on its periphery -- islands which I think are all uninhabited. Aside from commerce, I haven't seen China express much interest elsewhere on the globe.
I think the 21st Century holds a possibility of peaceful coexistence between the US (as a global military / economic power), Mainland China (as a major regional military power / global economic power), and perhaps a few other regional military / global economic powers like India, the EU, etc.
You never know. Perhaps by the time we reach the 22nd Century, the world will have settled the worst of its armed conflicts leaving geopolitics with a reduced need for miltiary force? Maybe that's an optimistic view, but I do hope this is how history will unfold.
rgds, hdm
_________________
Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators.
Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hdm
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Total posts: 2881 Location: East Coast USA Gender: Unknown
|
| Posted: 06/ 26/ 05 11:00 pm Post subject: Race |
|
|
re: Concerned Canuck - 21Jun05 3:57 pm
| Concerned Canuck wrote: | | Ahh ...so you're telling me that I should embrace the extermination of my ethnic group through mass non-European immigration followed by mass miscegenation (and you happen to be non-White (Oriental))... no thanks... |
People will marry who they choose to marry.
Whether you choose to marry and have children with somebody of your own racial group or a different racial group is your right and your business.
Your friends and descendants might choose differently; it is their right and their business.
Just out of curiousity, lets say you have two children, and one marries into his/her own race while the other marries somebody of a different race. How would you feel about your grandchildren? Would you love the "mixed race" onces as much as the "pure breds"?
Just wondering.
rgds, hdm
_________________
Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators.
Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hdm
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Total posts: 2881 Location: East Coast USA Gender: Unknown
|
| Posted: 06/ 26/ 05 11:02 pm Post subject: Top Down |
|
|
re: LondonLady - 21Jun05 7:29 pm
| LondonLady wrote: | There will not be peace merely if Israel does this [i.e., completes the security wall]. The borders in 1947 did not ensure peace.
The majority of Muslims have to openly acknowledge that Israel has the right to exist and to press their leaders to also openly acknowledge this in practice as well as in word.
Those who do want peace are allowing the extremist groups to intimidate them into silence. |
I have always maintained, LondonLady, that the key problem in the Middle East conflict involves leadership. Some, perhaps most, of the change in attitude needs to come from the top down; it is the Arab leaders who to need to take the initiative of moving their own people towards acceptance of Israel as a permanent neighbor in the region. A few of the the more visionary leaders have been doing this, e.g. Anwar Sadat, King Hussein of Jordan, and to an extent his son King Abdullah II. These leaders have/had taken steps -- some small, some bold -- to move the peace process in a positive direction.
I think too many of the Arab leaders are of fence sitting variety (e.g. President Mubarak) doing little or nothing to work actively towards a solution to the Israeli-Arab conflict. Unfortunately, until recently, the Arab leader in the most critical position has been the most abyssimal failure, i.e. Chairman Arafat, who squandered away a seven year window of opportunity offered by the Oslo Accords. Where he should have been using this time to prepare the Palestinian Arabs to live as good neighbors with Israel, he did absolutely nothing, and ran the Palestinian Authority as if he were some sort of a a war lord.
I would rate Mr. Abbas as an improvement, but it appears that he may not be a sufficiently strong leader to turn things around, and reverse the damage inflicted by the late Chairman.
I think, for the Palestinian Authority to turn things around, to lead a nation at peace with Israel, the required change will have to come from the top down, and must include standing up to and disarming the Islamist extremist groups, and squealching the hateful propaganda coming from their mosques and radio/TV broadcasts. It's OK, and understandable, for the Palestinian Authority to draw a hard negotiating position with Israel, but at the same time it is imperative they prepare thier people for the possibility that they may have to settle for something short of the "mainstream" demands the Arab World has long made of Israel.
rgds, hdm
_________________
Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators.
Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hdm
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Total posts: 2881 Location: East Coast USA Gender: Unknown
|
| Posted: 06/ 26/ 05 11:05 pm Post subject: Disengagement |
|
|
re: BJ - 21Jun05 7:31 pm
| BJ wrote: | | Isreal will make a peace pact with many......and in 3 and half years will be betrayed. Sounds to me like this is the peace pact that the Bible is referring to. |
Maybe the Bible was referring to the Koriash tribe mentioned in the Koran. Mohammed signed some sort of a truce with this Jewish tribe, then broke that same truce as soon as he had the military means to destroy them.
| BJ wrote: | | The Paleistians don't want peace, they want total destruction of the Jewish state. The think the terrorists acts have worked, and to a degree they have. Isreal is relenting under world pressure. God will protect Isreal in the final days. |
First, it seems you are painting the situation with a very broad brush to imply all Palestinian Arabs seek the complete elimination of the state of Israel. This is simply untrue.
Second, disengagement plan is an Israeli plan, not something imposed from the outside. Stage One of the The Road Map Plan only requires Israel dismantle settlements erected after March 2001. Gaza wouldn't apply.
As I've stated earlier, I think the disengagement plan along with the security fence was developed as a means for Israel -- in the absencce of a credible, competent Palestinian partner -- to go into a long-term political holding pattern, vacate areas where secuirty and political liabilities outweigh benefits (like Gaza), solidify its hold in areas it considers more critical to its "bottom line" position, and draw up some sort of provisional de-facto border until such time that it would be feasible to negotiate a comprehensive agreement with the Palestinian Arabs.
After the Chairman expired last year, there was probably also a hope that the disengagement plan would provide some political momentum to the peace process, momentum which would allow Mr. Abbas fulfill his primary responsibility in the peace process: disarming and disbanding the various extremist militias which present a security threat to Israel. Those hopes seem to have fallen by the wayside for the near term.
In a security sense, anyway, the disengagement still presents Israel with some advantages over strict compliance with Phase I of the Road Map Plan, i.e. dismantling those small but stubborn settlement outposts erected since March 2001, withdrawing the IDF from 'Area A', and redeploying it to positions held prior to October 2000.
rgds, hdm
_________________
Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators.
Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hdm
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Total posts: 2881 Location: East Coast USA Gender: Unknown
|
| Posted: 06/ 26/ 05 11:10 pm Post subject: Settlements / Borders |
|
|
re: Maikeru - 21Jun05 8:46 pm
| Maikeru wrote: | | LondonLady wrote: | | There will not be peace merely if Israel does this [i.e. completes the security wall]. The borders in 1947 did not ensure peace. |
There will not be peace if Israel does not do this either, and the settlements are the cause of increasingly widespread acceptance of anti-Israeli rhetoric.
Israeli settlements on land deemed outside Israeli borders is not a concept that goes over well at a time when, eg., even the colonial 'settlements' of our Canadian forefathers is cause for societal self-flagellation. |
There are no defined borders between Israel and the future Palestinian Arab state.
| Maikeru wrote: | | Har! It's hard to imagine ME Muslims telling their leaders, be they religious or self-annointed, what to do. OTOH, it's easy for their leaders to point to the settlements, and particularly those in the Gaza strip, as evidence that Israel's future expectations are to continue exerting control over areas outside their legitimate mandate. |
And if Israel withdrew from every settlement tomorrow, Islamist extremist leaders will quickly find a new point of contention. Happens every time. Arab response to any unilateral Israeli concession usually amounts to three words: "not good enough".
| Maikeru wrote: | | Since Israel ceded control of the Sinai Peninsula back to Egypt in 1978, Peace has prevailed between the two countries. Then too, there was vociferous objection by many Israelis at having to dismantle settlements which sprang up in the Sinai in the aftermath of the 1967 war. |
The far right in Israel is ideologically opposed to giving up settlements, but I think they only represent a small portion of Israel's population. Convince the maninstream Israeli that it will be in his/her interests to do so, and it will happen.
No stranger to being on the far right, Menachem Begin, the former Irgun-operative-turned-Prime-Minister convinced the Israeli public to withdraw from the Sinai, including the settlements, because he could make the case that Israeli security would not be compromised by doing so, and that Mr. Sadat had become a credible, competent leader who would honor his commitments.
| Maikeru wrote: | | LondonLady wrote: | | Those who do want peace are allowing the extremist groups to intimidate them into silence. |
That sword cuts both ways. The perception that settlements are fostered and supported by extremist Israelis is displacing public disdain for ongoing actions by extremist Muslims.
|
Actually, Maikeru, I don't think that sword cuts very far in the other direction at all. There are Israelis on the far right who support settlements, those who even support the Israeli annexation of the West Bank and Gaza, but I have never seen them successfully intimidate their political opponents into silence.
(I'm reluctant to use the word "extremist" to describe Israelis on the far right because of the vast moral differences between them and Islamist extremists.)
rgds, hdm
_________________
Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators.
Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hdm
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Total posts: 2881 Location: East Coast USA Gender: Unknown
|
| Posted: 06/ 26/ 05 11:12 pm Post subject: Road Map / Border |
|
|
re: LondonLady - 21Jun05 9:08 pm
| LondonLady wrote: | | The situation now is a little different. At some places Israel will be no more than 6 miles wide if the Roadmap is followed, and in others it will be divided in two, thus making Israel impossible to defend. Appeasement has seemed to have had one effect-to merely whet the fanatics appetite for more. |
I think you are mistaken on that particular point, LondonLady. The Road Map Plan does not, in any way, specify the border between Israel and a future Palestinian Arab state.
It leaves that as a matter upon which the parties must reach mutual agreement.
rgds, hdm
_________________
Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators.
Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hdm
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Total posts: 2881 Location: East Coast USA Gender: Unknown
|
| Posted: 06/ 26/ 05 11:13 pm Post subject: Safeguard |
|
|
re: truegrit - 21Jun05 11:23 pm
| truegrit wrote: | | As I said previously, Israel's military, nuclear arsenal, the fence and America's support will go along way towards making Israel a safe place to live. |
You'll have to explain, truegrit, how you feel that Israel's nuclear arsenal -- unverified, but probable -- will make Israel a safe place to live. This arsenal doesn't seem to have done much in the ways of safeguarding all those Israelis killed in bus bombings and other attacks carried out over the course of the Intefadeh War.
As for the fence, it will only be effective so long as it is used in addition to -- not as a substitute for -- other means, either an IDF presence in the West Bank as we see today, or a Palestinian Authority which can effectively disarm and diband Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and other various groups who consider themselves to be at war with Israel. On its own, fence itself neither tall enough, nor strong enough, to block mortar or rocket fire.
US support, or international support, isn't the issue. If the Palestinian Arabs are set on waging war against Israel, they will do so regardless of who is safeguarding Israelis.
The problem is that without active intervention by the Palestinian Authority to shut down the various Islamist extremist groups operating from its jurisdiction, an Israeli "retreat" behind a wall or other barrier, simply increases the level of sanctuary enjoyed by those hostile groups, and will allow them over time to become an even greater threat.
| truegrit wrote: | | (If the U.S. can safeguard Berlin, Guantanamo Bay and South Korea from far more sophisticated opponents then I think Israel's safety should be achievable). |
You're picking examples in which all parties have agreed to a cessation of armed hostilities. Think instead of the US efforts to safeguard Saigon, Mogadishu, or Baghdad.
rgds, hdm
_________________
Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators.
Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hdm
Joined: 18 Apr 2004 Total posts: 2881 Location: East Coast USA Gender: Unknown
|
| Posted: 06/ 26/ 05 11:24 pm Post subject: Good Points / Interesting Analogies |
|
|
re: Maikeru - 22Jun05 3:13 pm
| Maikeru wrote: | In the years leading up to the 1967 War, there was every reason to believe that Israel might indeed be destroyed by the combined might of the Arab states, especially Egypt, arrayed against it.
When the PLO was formed in 1964, it had little credibility even amongst the refugee camps which remained from 1948. Even when Yasser Arafat became head of the organization in 1969, little heed was paid to the group, especially after the devastating defeat of the Arab armies in 1967.
It was the attack on Israeli atheletes during the 1972 Munich Games which brought the group to international prominence. |
Actually, I believe that the 1967-1970 war of attrition, and subsequent IDF raids across the Jordan River made quite a few headlines and put the PLO on the international spotlight a few years before Munich, '72. I also remember the PLO comandeering 4 passenger airliners in 1970 and blowing them up at Amman's airport. Then there was Black September....
| Maikeru wrote: | | If one rewinds time back to the period following WW2, but prior to the UN decision to partition the Palestinian mandate, there were several Israeli terror groups active, including the Stern Gang and the Irgun (from which came Menacham Begin). |
These groups were subsequently disbanded by the Israeli government during its war of independence.
If the Palestinian Authority does the same for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, etc., a major point of contention can be overcome.
If the Palestinian Authority is unwilling or unable to do so, then what exactly do they have to offer Israel in exchange for land?
| Maikeru wrote: | | I cannot think of a single instance prior to the recent demonstrations in Lebanon where the people of a ME state successfully rose up against their leaders. Even the deposing of the Shah in Iran was orchestrated by a leadership cadre waiting in the wings to take over. |
Very good observation, Maikeru. Neither can I, off hand. There were some palace coups, e.g. Egypt (1953, I think), Iraq (1958), Libya (1969), Afghanistan (1972, 1978, 1979), but I don't think any of these changes came from the ground up.
| Maikeru wrote: | | It is amazing how small the overall area is for all the grief that land has brought it's citizens. Again, the double edged sword applies to a divided 'Palestine' being equally indefensible against aggressors. |
No sword at all here. Defense issues and responsibilities have already been specified: The Oslo Accord Declaration of Principles, signed in 1993, states: "In order to guarantee public order and internal security for the Palestinians of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the Council [i.e. Palestinian Authority] will establish a strong police force, while Israel will continue to carry the responsibility for defending against external threats, as well as the responsibility for overall security of Israelis for the purpose of safeguarding their internal security and public order." In short, Israel guarantees the external security of a future Palestinian Arab state, IF that future state does not become a base of operation for extremist groups who present a security threat to Israel.
| Maikeru wrote: | | I don't think the spectre of 'appeasement', in the same sense as the ceding of the Sudetenland in 1938, applies here. |
It doesn't apply very well because Sudetenland did, in 1938, have a large portion of ethnic Germans. On the other hand, the Israeli / Jewish population in Gaza is less than 1% of the total. I have also stated earlier my reasons for believing Israel's planned withdrawal from Gaza has little to do with appeasement.
| Maikeru wrote: | | Actually, the parallel which increasingly hits home is that of Germany absorbing the Sudetenland / Israel absorbing the Gaza strip. |
That would be a very strained comparison, Maikeru.
Israel's right wing leaders do not even have a fraction of the political support needed to annex Gaza. I'm not aware of any mainstream Israeli leader who advocate such a move.
rgds, hdm
_________________
Opinions posted on Free Dominion are those of the individual posters and are not necessarily the opinion of Free Dominion or its operators.
Free Dominion does not advocate violence, hate speech or an overthrow of the government. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Concerned Canuck
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Total posts: 646 Gender: Unknown
|
| Posted: 06/ 26/ 05 11:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Understanding our Dilemma, Part I:
| CC wrote: | The European North American ethnic group has an absolute right to exist in proportion to the status quo; in addition, to live freely in communities in which it composes the vast majority of the population. Only through this means will our people and our culture continue to exist. 2050: European North Americans become a minority.
|
| CC wrote: | Any creature, large or small ie the single celled bacterium, wants to survive - it amazes me how Europeans got into this predicament.
The following may help shed some light on this question: |
| Quote: | In 1947, Liberal Prime Minister Mackenzie King made the following speech which was a reflection of the Canadian majority?s sentiment at the time:
Quote M King:
| Quote: |
There will, I am sure, be general agreement with the view that the people of Canada do not wish, as a result of mass immigration, to make a fundamental alteration in the character of our population. Large-scale immigration from the orient would change the fundamental composition of the Canadian population. Any considerable oriental immigration would, moreover, be certain to give rise to social and economic problems of a character that might lead to serious difficulties in the field of international relations. The government, therefore, has no thought of making any change in immigration regulations which would have consequences of the kind......With regard to the selection of immigrants, much has been said about discrimination. I wish to make it quite clear that Canada is perfectly within her rights in selecting the persons whom we regard as desirable future citizens. It is not a "fundamental human right" of any alien to enter Canada. |
Those who were born after Canada's transformation into a multicultural society, probably find it astounding to hear such words coming from a Liberal prime minister. They'd be even more astonished to hear what our earlier federal leaders had to say in regards to Canada's racial-ethnic homogeneity: see John A. Macdonald, Wilfrid Laurier, and Robert Borden's shared desire to keep Canada a 'white man's country.'
How is it then, that such change came to pass? The ideology of multiculturalism spread across the entire Western world shortly after WWII. The mechanism of its seeding, I believe, is best described in the following excerpt writen by John Derbyshire, posted in the Online National Review, in reference to Great Britain (http://olimu.com/WebJournalism/Texts/Commentary/UKRaceRiots.htm):
Quote J Derbyshire:
| Quote: |
Yet as satisfying as it may to pin it all on Britain?s insufferably arrogant ruling elites, the country is a democracy, and the people had plenty of opportunities to make their voices heard. In 1968 a leading English politician, Enoch Powell, made a well-publicized and colorful speech in which he deplored the incoming flood of immigrants, and predicted, pretty accurately, the problems his country would face in the future if the process was not reversed. Powell was promptly sacked from his posts in the Conservative Party (then in opposition) and all the panjandrums of the British establishment denounced him. Yet a poll taken at the time showed that 74 per cent of the public agreed with his opinions. Why did that 74 per cent not translate into actual government policies through the ballot box? Presumably because, when time came to vote, people thought other things were more important; and also because citizens were willing to be browbeaten by their elites into being ashamed of their own feelings - to believe, because politicians, intellectuals, clergymen and TV talking heads told them so, that their own instinctive national pride, which had preserved their country?s independence for a thousand years, was a sinful thing, a species of that greatest of all modern sins, ?racism?. |
Here's another aspect of the issue which delves into understanding how Western civilization changed its immigration policies and adopted multiculturalism.:
Non-Europeans are competing for a piece of Western society's pie today - a totally understandable and natural process. There are, however, many serious and unacceptable repercussions to such trends; exemplary precedents:
| Quote: |
Endangered Peoples
http://www.spiritualityhealth.com/newsh/items/bookreview/item_7006.html
Over 250 million indigenous peoples all over the world are struggling to keep alive their ancient traditions and ways of life. "The battle lines of cultural survival cross every continent," writes Art Davidson (The Circle of Life) in this 1993 book. "In virtually every country, indigenous peoples are fighting for their lives, their identities, their futures." Here are profiles and interviews with Maasai of Kenya, Yanomami of Brazil, Maori of New Zealand, and many others whose tribes are in peril from threats of development, famine and drought, repressive governments, and loss of religious freedom. Endangered Peoples is a wake-up call for cross-cultural activists who believe that the diversity of the human family is worth preserving. |
I don't believe that any one group of people, political fraction, ethnic group, philosophy, etc is particularly responsible; I especially wish to emphasize that our own are just as responsible. Multiculturalism was a great bestowal to Canada at one point but now threatens to indirectly wipeout European Canadian society.
For more interesting reading, Black Jacques Shellack (great man) is a excellent writer on Canadian European ethnicity and preservation:
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=357058#357058
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=379215#379215
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=379410#379410
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=382748#382748
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=382773#382773
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=350006#350006
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=324083#324083
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=290514#290514
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=278130#278130
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=275945#275945
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=275708#275708
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=250024#250024
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=199628#199628
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=150842#150842
I enjoy reading Rufus Polson's posts. Reformer4Life is quite good:
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=22873&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
...there are many others
Here's a good essay for Christians:
More Resources:
| Quote: |
December 7, 2001
For Whom the Bells Toll
Paul Craig Roberts
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/paulcraigroberts/pcr20001207.shtml
| Quote: | | There won't always be an England or a United States. Both are already fading, not from military conquest but from their own immigration policy. Demographers have calculated that by the end of this century the English people will be a minority in their homeland. The English are not having enough children to reproduce themselves. |
October 27, 2004
Immigration And The Unmentionable Question Of Ethnic Interests
By Dr Kevin MacDonald
http://www.vdare.com/misc/macdonald_041027_immigration.htm
| Quote: | Arguments over immigration are usually limited to cultural or economic factors. Political scientists like Samuel Huntington point out that the culture of the country will change dramatically if there is a
continued influx of Spanish-speaking immigrants. And economists like George Borjas have demonstrated that large masses of newcomers depress wages and create enormous demands on the environment and on public
services, especially health care and education.
These lines of argument are, of course, legitimate. But there always seems to be an element of timidity present. No one wants to talk about the 800-lb. gorilla sitting over there in the corner-the issue of ethnic interests. |
February 16, 1998
Enoch Powell spoke the truth on immigration
by Don Feder
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/feder021698.html
| Quote: | | BRITISH POLITICIAN Enoch Powell, a member of Parliament for 37 years, died on Sunday. Powell was a man of extraordinary ability, who had the courage to speak the truth on immigration. For this, he was driven from the Tory leadership and became known as the best prime minister Britain never had. |
May 31st, 2001
October 2001
The Jewish Stake in America's Changing Demography
By Stephen Steinlight
http://www.cis.org/articles/2001/back1301.html
| Quote: | Preface: Challenging A Crumbling Consensus
This piece is the fruit of an authentic and deeply felt conversion experience, but much as one hankers to grab the reader's attention with a dramatic retelling of a great and sudden epiphany, it didn't happen that way. My change of heart, of thought, came gradually, even reluctantly. |
June 19, 2004
Was the 1924 Immigration Cut-off ?Racist??
By Dr Kevin MacDonald
http://www.vdare.com/misc/macdonald_1924_immigration.htm
| Quote: | When Dr. Stephen Steinlight first advocated a change in the traditional Jewish support for open borders, his reflexive loathing of the 1920s legislative cut-off that ended the First Great Wave of immigration (see timeline) overwhelmed the logic of his argument.
He described the cut-off as ?evil, xenophobic, anti-Semitic,? ?vilely discriminatory,? a ?vast moral failure,? a ?monstrous policy.? And he dismissed the vast majority of pre-1965 Americans as a ?thoughtless mob? because they supported a near-complete moratorium on immigration. |
June 28, 2004
Cherchez le Juif
A provocative analysis of the causes of white decline. Culture of Critique reviewed.
By Stanley Hornbeck
http://www.amren.com/993issue/993issue.html
| Quote: | | If Jews have undermined the traditions on which Western Civilization depends, so are they now undermining the liberal orthodoxy that continues to threaten those traditions. |
October 31, 2004
Jack London Literary Prize
By Dr. Kevin Macdonald
http://www.theoccidentalquarterly.com/jllp1/jllp-km.html
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40908
South Africa In Our Future?
http://www.vdare.com/francis/south_africa2.htm
By Dr Sam Francis
| Quote: |
When President Bush made his grand tour of Africa last
year, he had little to say about the land seizures and
violent assaults on white farmers that the government
of Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe has carried out, nor did
he insist that South Africa's president Thabo Mbeki do
anything about it. |
|
Good books:
On Genetic Interests: Family, Ethny and Humanity in an Age of Mass Migration
http://www.amren.com/store/salter.htm
Death of the West
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0312285485?v=glance
|
The eradication of European peoples from the face of the planet is definetely a type of "ethnic cleansing that is OK." NOT!
Understanding Our Dilemma, Part II:
http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=475611#475611
Conclusion: Please help us!
_________________
The European North American ethnic group has an absolute right to exist in proportion to the status quo; in addition, to live freely in communities in which it composes the vast majority of the population. Only through this means will our people and our culture continue to exist. 2050: European North Americans become a minority.
European 
Understanding our Dilemma
Donate to FD
Last edited by Concerned Canuck on 07/ 26/ 05 5:10 pm; edited 12 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Maikeru
Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Total posts: 4374 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Gender: Male
|
| Posted: 06/ 27/ 05 12:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Concerned Canuck wrote: |
The eradication of European peoples from the face of the planet is definetely a type of ethnic cleansing that is OK. |
Yep. The kind that hasn't happened yet, and might not at all if a PETA or Greenpeace type organization can motivate governments to have whiteheads declared national treasures.
_________________
“There were not six million Jews murdered; there was one murder, six million times.” — Holocaust survivor Abel Herzberg
"Let all the babies be born. Then let us drown those we do not like." - Chesterton - |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Concerned Canuck
Joined: 16 Dec 2004 Total posts: 646 Gender: Unknown
|
| Posted: 06/ 27/ 05 12:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Maikeru wrote: | | Concerned Canuck wrote: |
The eradication of European peoples from the face of the planet is definetely a type of ethnic cleansing that is OK. |
Yep. The kind that hasn't happened yet, and might not at all if a PETA or Greenpeace type organization can motivate governments to have whiteheads declared national treasures. |
It may not be by the bayonet but rather the smily face; nonetheless it's happening all the same.
Also:
http://www.africancrisis.org/photos16.asp - WARNING - GRAPHIC PHOTOS OF MURDER VICTIMS, DON'T LOOK AT THEM IF YOU HAVE A WEAK STOMACH OR ARE UNDER 18.
Adapt and Die - 32,000 murders in South Africa! (2005)
by Dan Roodt
http://www.africancrisis.org/Ph_Adapt.asp
South Africa In Our Future?
http://www.vdare.com/francis/south_africa2.htm
By Dr Sam Francis
| Quote: | When President Bush made his grand tour of Africa last
year, he had little to say about the land seizures and
violent assaults on white farmers that the government
of Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe has carried out, nor did
he insist that South Africa's president Thabo Mbeki do
anything about it. |
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/zimbabwe/index.php
http://www.amren.com/0307issue/0307issue.html
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/south_africa/index.php
http://www.africancrisis.org/default2.asp
| hdm wrote: | re: Concerned Canuck - 21Jun05 3:57 pm
| Concerned Canuck wrote: | | Ahh ...so you're telling me that I should embrace the extermination of my ethnic group through mass non-European immigration followed by mass miscegenation (and you happen to be non-White (Oriental))... no thanks... |
People will marry who they choose to marry.
Whether you choose to marry and have children with somebody of your own racial group or a different racial group is your right and your business.
Your friends and descendants might choose differently; it is their right and their business. |
Did I say anything to the contrary?
| hmd wrote: |
Just out of curiousity, lets say you have two children, and one marries into his/her own race while the other marries somebody of a different race. How would you feel about your grandchildren? Would you love the "mixed race" onces as much as the "pure breds"?
Just wondering.
rgds, hdm |
Pure breds? How about people of my own racial type. To answer your question: I would love those non-White grandchildren; the parent of those children - my child, would have broken my heart by not marrying a White to perpetuate our God given family line's racial type.
| Gir Draxon wrote: | | Where is Concerned Canuck? Isn't he going to post a rant lamenting the fact that she's not a perfect pale blonde blue-eyed Aryan? |
This question was posted in referral to Miss Canada Universe 2005 being a brunette.
| CC wrote: |
Gir Draxon,
I believe in the preservation of the European ethnic group. Europeans (Whites) can have range of characteristics ie black hair, brown eyes etc ...
For the record I do find blondes and red heads and those with blue and green eyes particularly attractive... those colours are often, in terms of polls done, peoples' favourite colours - it makes sense that many would find such colours particularly attractive as part of the superficial characteristics of a person.
To note: I'm a brunette with brown eyes whose girlfriend is also a brunette with brown eyes.
Here's an interesting study that should delight you Draxon:
Study: Blondes Are an Endangered Species
Monday, September 30, 2002
By Bill Hoffmann
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,64440,00.html
| Quote: | NEW YORK — Blondes may have more fun, but they're not going to have it for too much longer.
A new study by German researchers claims that people with blonde hair comprise an endangered species that will become extinct by 2202. |
|
| mynameishuynh wrote: | | CC, when are you gonna stop with your european race thing? Is this all you can think of when posting on FD? |
| CC wrote: | Why is ok that my ethnic group will be eradicated... would you like if your Oriental ethnic group were going to become a minority in China, Japan, Korea, Vietnam, etc and eventually go extinct within the next several centuries?
My race informs my culture, what we look like is the symbol of our people.
Races differ in many ways, more than just appearance. Our voices sound different than people of other races - hence our music sounds differently, our IQ and creativity is different than others, our diseases are different, our athletic eptitudes are different, our metablism is different (drugs, milk, alcohol),...back to appearance: our body shape, skull shape, facial characteristics are different.
Diversity is beautiful...we are a good ethnic group... we don't deserve to be exterminated through a bunch of indirect social policies, media silence, libel against any of those who stand up to protect us. |
FAQ's on the ECCN:
Many ask why the European Canadian Community Network (ECCN) is necessary:
| Quote: | | The problem is, without our own ethnic enclaves, we'll disappear - it's as simple as that. The Aboriginals have the First Nations reservation system, we need something similar. People can deny and try to hide from this reality for as long as they want, wait too long and we'll disappear. One point constantly overlooked: we can't escape racial biology, it MUST be a part of the issue - people forget that our race is recessive to all others - ie when we mix with non-Europeans, our White family lines are permanently transformed into non-White family lines. It's as basic as that. We either exist as an ethnic group or we cease to exist. The longer we wait - the less chance we'll have at gaining anything significant / we jeopardize any chance of gaining anything. The European Canadian ethnic group must survive and, at a minimum, must survive in proportions equivalent to the status quo. We must be able to ensure our existence, control our own affairs, never be exploited nor abused by others; for now, and until the end of time. |
Many European Canadians want a multiracial + multicultural Canada - so does the European Canadian Community Network:
| Quote: | | The ECCN supports the diversity of major urban centres as well as other non-ECCN communities in Canada. The ECCN believes in the mixing (not the homogenization) of the world's ethnic-racial groups. The ECCN believes in preserving diversity. |
Many European Canadians do not wish to have the CPC party directly affiliated with the ECCN:
| Quote: | The issues addressed by the ECCN are multipartisan issues. The ECCN in no way wishes to become a part of or infringe upon the CPC.
The ECCN will remain a totally independent organization. More and more, the CPC will continue to devolve into a strictly fiscally conservative party - that's it. The ethnic group - European - which was primarily responsible for building Canada - is now nothing more than another minority group - with legitimate rights and concerns. The ECCN will address these concerns - IT will take its platform to parliament - It will extend its outreach to all Canadian political parties. Keeping the traditional European Canadian ethnic group in existence in Canada is a multipartisan issue! |
Many have misconceptions about the ECCN - ie call us racist:
| Quote: | | We have racialist views - not racist views - we believe in the preservation of all God's creatures, all of the earth's racial-ethnic groups. We are anti-racist - ie we don't believe in allowing for the wiping-out any ethnic group through any kind of indirect social policy. |
_________________
The European North American ethnic group has an absolute right to exist in proportion to the status quo; in addition, to live freely in communities in which it composes the vast majority of the population. Only through this means will our people and our culture continue to exist. 2050: European North Americans become a minority.
European
Understanding our Dilemma
Donate to FD
Last edited by Concerned Canuck on 06/ 27/ 05 11:48 pm; edited 6 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Maikeru
Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Total posts: 4374 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Gender: Male
|
| Posted: 06/ 27/ 05 1:04 am Post subject: Re: Settlements / Borders |
|
|
| hdm wrote: |
There are no defined borders between Israel and the future Palestinian Arab state. |
no, but there is a wall being built that merits that status...
| Quote: |
And if Israel withdrew from every settlement tomorrow, Islamist extremist leaders will quickly find a new point of contention. Happens every time. Arab response to any unilateral Israeli concession usually amounts to three words: "not good enough". |
Not so. Egypt remains in the fold of peaceful nations, even if anti-Israeli rhetoric abounds there.
| Quote: |
Actually, Maikeru, I don't think that sword [The perception that settlements are fostered and supported by extremist Israelis is displacing public disdain for ongoing actions by extremist Muslims] cuts very far in the other direction at all. There are Israelis on the far right who support settlements, those who even support the Israeli annexation of the West Bank and Gaza, but I have never seen them successfully intimidate their political opponents into silence. |
My point was that world condemnation of human scud attacks on Israel is being denatured by a fostered perception that the only barrier to peace are Israeli settlements outside Israel on current world maps (other than those supplied Palestinian schoolkids).
In turn, support for Israeli Gaza settlements is seen by neutral viewers as 'extremist' due being defiant of external recognition.
_________________
“There were not six million Jews murdered; there was one murder, six million times.” — Holocaust survivor Abel Herzberg
"Let all the babies be born. Then let us drown those we do not like." - Chesterton - |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Maikeru
Joined: 05 Nov 2004 Total posts: 4374 Location: Vancouver, British Columbia Gender: Male
|
| Posted: 06/ 27/ 05 2:04 am Post subject: Re: Good Points / Interesting Analogies |
|
|
| hdm wrote: |
Actually, I believe that the 1967-1970 war of attrition, and subsequent IDF raids across the Jordan River made quite a few headlines and put the PLO on the international spotlight a few years before Munich, '72. |
That's very true, but the main menace remained Egypt, which grew estranged from Anglo-American influence, and increasingly susceptible to Russian support and intrigue. Fedayeen raids had for some years been met with the an IDF equivalent of hunting quail.
| Quote: | | I also remember the PLO comandeering 4 passenger airliners in 1970 and blowing them up at Amman's airport. Then there was Black September.... |
All true, but again 'over there' and 'in the papers' until they erupted into living rooms from the middle of Europe. That attack in and on the core of Europe was as dramatic a public assault as any ever made up until 9/11
| Quote: |
If the Palestinian Authority is unwilling or unable to do so [disarm and disband paramilitary organizations], then what exactly do they have to offer Israel in exchange for land? |
A labour source, and potential for enormous benefit from tourism, neither of which are available while conflicts flare.
| The Oslo Accord wrote: | | "In order to guarantee public order and internal security for the Palestinians of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, the Council [i.e. Palestinian Authority] will establish a strong police force, while Israel will continue to carry the responsibility for defending against external threats, as well as the responsibility for overall security of Israelis for the purpose of safeguarding their internal security and public order." |
The guarantee rings flat, too, if Israel is charged with defending against external threat without removing the settlements, which are seen to be 'eternal threats' .
| Quote: |
That [Germany absorbing the Sudetenland / Israel absorbing the Gaza strip] would be a very strained comparison. |
Strained or not, the greater is Israel's success in settling the Gaza, and enforcing civil obedience there, the more cogent the analogy becomes.
_________________
“There were not six million Jews murdered; there was one murder, six million times.” — Holocaust survivor Abel Herzberg
"Let all the babies be born. Then let us drown those we do not like." - Chesterton - |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sponsor
|
Use PayPal to make regular monthly $20 donations to the free speech cause - quit any time! Or make a one time donation!
|
|
|
| When Ethnic Cleansing is OK |
|
| Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 Next |
Page 11 of 14
All times are GMT - 5 Hours |
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
