Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Documenting free speech attacks by Richard Warman, Warren Kinsella, the Human Rights Commissions and others who would seek to silence conservative discourse in Canada.

Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby WestViking » 06/ 17/ 12 9:50 am

Julian wrote: It is exactly what has been happening Edward. Don't you think what is good for the goose is good for the gander? They are FAR more liable that FD has ever been yet the pacifists here want them to continue to use knives and brass knuckles on FD while words are the only defense they face. .... and the system is stacked against FD. Wouldn't it be nice if Mark and Connie got several 5 figure awards for a change? They're long past due.
I agree - but you do not know what advice I have provided on 'fighting back'. It is best to come as a surprise to their enemies.
Julian wrote: Taking the high road only works when dealing with people capable of morality and feeling shame.
Not when you are off to court and your credibility and reputation are factors the court will consider.
Julian wrote: The rules are not being dictated by FD they rules are already made and being used to punish FD with immunity against having to face equal and opposite reaction. FIGHT dammit!
The 'rules' are contained in the Ontario Libel and Slander Act which was written in 1990 prior to development of Internet blogs, forums, chat rooms and media comments sections. The size of the internet is growing exponentially while the readership of any given site is shrinking as people find it impossible to read all of the available blogs, forums, chat rooms and media comments sections. We need to show clearly that the Ontario L & S Act is not appropriate to self-published sites on the Internet and certainly not to litigants who create opportunities to misuse the Ontario L & S Act. Entrapment is a repulsive maneuver and entrapment is what has been used against the Fourniers.
The most effective way to stifle democracy is to transfer decision-making from the public arena to unaccountable institutions: activist judges, human rights tribunals, parliamentary committees, civil service bureaucrats and political party hacks.
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby Edward Kennedy » 06/ 17/ 12 9:57 am

Julian wrote:
WestViking wrote:You have no evidence to support your accusation. I have supported the Fourniers for the past eleven years and will continue to do so.


Of course I do. Five years of only playing defense isn't evidence, it's proof.

Opening a separate class action suit does not 'level the playing field'; it extends the playing field and bring in judicial referees who will not ever leave us.


As opposed to what? The tranquility we now enjoy? The ONLY people enjoying tranquility are the people attacking FD!



That can change in 24 hours at any time. Only fools feel secure while hiding behind the damned system. :-k
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby Blaze Pascal » 06/ 17/ 12 11:16 am

With apologies for sticking my nose in, it seems to me that Connie and Mark's position is that no one did anything wrong, so to start a similar lawsuit would fly in the face of that. However, starting a counter suit would be good because if we defamed them then they defamed us. A counter suit would be vastly cheaper and shorter. A whole new suit would be a mammoth undertaking for a cause we don't really agree with. But I like E Kennedy's approach: stay poised and ready and fight intimidation with intimidation.
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby shiva » 06/ 17/ 12 12:25 pm

As I said on another thread on this subject, I'd be willing to bet that the learned judges will approach this fake problem with a certain ideological point of view and at the end of this costly exercise, all that will be accomplished is that they will codify the silencing of politically incorrect points of view.

Backhoe posted a link to a blog where they are discussing the Brett Kimberlaine story. I think it's worth having a look at it again within the context of this discussion we are having about FD. You can see it here:

http://theothermccain.com/2012/06/01/th ... periority/

The title of the blog post is "Radicals Justify Their Evil by Invoking their Presumed Moral Authority".
In particular, this paragraph jumped out at me, the "accusations" referred to being "Islamaphobe and White Supremacist":

"Such accusations, you see, are part of the belief system by which the far Left justifies its lawless radicalism: Because their enemies are all, in one way or another, guilty of political ThoughtCrimes (a category that the Left is always willing to expand and re-define as necessary), the Left need not be scrupulous as to the means by which it advances its goals.
If you buy into the premises of their argument, then the conclusion logically follows that any outcome other than the complete triumph of the Left — the extermination of all resistance — is unacceptable, and whatever foul, unjust and illegal actions are necessary to accomplish that triumph can be justified."

Now, here's my point? Why would we allow this presumption of moral authority by the left, become the deciding factor in what is considered allowable speech? Why are we buying into their premise that there is even such a thing as "allowable speech" when it comes to expression of political opinion and why on earth would we buy into the idea that judges (or anyone for that matter) can be the final arbiters of what that speech is?

The fact is, if someone wants to participate on a political discussion forum, they must first sign up, so in other words they are making quite a deliberate effort to be involved in the raucous and unpredictable world of opinion flinging. As I said in another post on this subject, why isn't the answer simply a disclaimer from the forum operators that says that you sign up and play at your own risk of hurt feelings?

I can't count how many times Red Green has accused me of being a member of the "Conservative Taliban". Should I run away crying and ask the state or lawyers to silence him and stop him from expressing his (ill informed) opinion of me? No! I'd rather argue with him and call him names in return. And, if either one of us crosses a line, we do so at the risk of being banned or held in low esteem by other forum members.

We must insist that this voluntary and self-regulating aspect of political forums should be respected and not even engage in this fake battle that these judges would like to deliberate on, especially when you factor in the mind-set and political inclinations of those very judges.
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby Edward Kennedy » 06/ 17/ 12 12:53 pm

As always Shiva, you demonstrate what makes you so beautiful, as do all Conservative women, NAKED AND RAW INTELLIGENCE/INTELLECT. ADORABLE FOR SURE.
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby shiva » 06/ 17/ 12 1:02 pm

Edward Kennedy wrote:As always Shiva, you demonstrate what makes you so beautiful, as do all Conservative women, NAKED AND RAW INTELLIGENCE/INTELLECT. ADORABLE FOR SURE.


Thank you as always Edward! :)

Although, in re-reading my post, it seems I need to correct some typos and just noticed I don't have an "edit" button anymore. Did we lose the edit button again or is it just me? :?
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby Edward Kennedy » 06/ 17/ 12 1:25 pm

I did not notice myself, but I suspect on your worst day you do not mistakes at all. :D :hug:

Different time, different place, there are women here including you I would feel well worth my while becoming very close friends with....and more :-k

My loss...

Sorry gal, I always cave when it comes to trying to be discreet about my feelings, either bad or favorable towards others in general. I will never change, never been slapped or verbaly abused for being this way, and it even netted me a few hugs and kisses, Golly gee... :oops: Punish me some more for being blunt. I always praise excellence wherever I see it.

Always Edward
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby styky » 06/ 17/ 12 1:41 pm

shiva wrote:
Edward Kennedy wrote:As always Shiva, you demonstrate what makes you so beautiful, as do all Conservative women, NAKED AND RAW INTELLIGENCE/INTELLECT. ADORABLE FOR SURE.


Thank you as always Edward! :)

Although, in re-reading my post, it seems I need to correct some typos and just noticed I don't have an "edit" button anymore. Did we lose the edit button again or is it just me? :?


I don't know if it's changed or not but if you PM me something specific you want corrected I'll see what I can do. :)
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby pirapoi » 06/ 17/ 12 2:15 pm

Just an observation: -

I have no legal training, but I'm trying to do whatever I can to help.

In looking for some information on Ontario defamation laws and the internet I came across a rather long list of internet related Ontario court cases.

It surprised me how often Freedominion showed up (although in retrospect I guess it shouldn't have).
I can certainly understand the 'always playing defense' frustration.

Fighting internet censorship, protecting online anonymity, battling highly questionable defamation suits . . .
all worthwhile endeavors to be sure, but even if we won ever court case on the horizen I'm sure many of them would be appealed.
Considering the lack of case law in a lot of these areas, I wouldn't be surprised to see some of these end up in the Supreme Court.

/ Some major league financial and legal help would be a godsend.
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby free_life2 » 06/ 17/ 12 2:29 pm

The real problem to us a supposed free people is the stinking justice/legal system, and yes stinking is the right description for a system that allows such nonsense suits and makes it so costly to defend oneself. Appeal the appeal of the appeal .... what we allow and just accept as they legal profiteers profit and profit big!

A rational and free people would have settled this in a matter of a few minutes and there wouldn't have been a stinking lawyer involved in any way.

I know in the mean time this suit and this dogfellow has to be dealt with in the only legal system we have but it still stinks.
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby WestViking » 06/ 17/ 12 3:05 pm

There is an unexplored aspect of law respecting defamation actions:

Clean hands doctrine n. a rule of law that a person coming to court with a lawsuit or petition for a court order must be free from unfair conduct (have "clean hands" or not have done anything wrong) in regard to the subject matter of his/her claim. As an affirmative defense (positive response) a defendant might claim the plaintiff (party suing) has a "lack of clean hands" or "violates the clean hands doctrine" because the plaintiff has misled the defendant or has done something wrong regarding the matter under consideration.


I don't think the dawg can claim clean hands since he carried his agruments from blog to blog to forum and published inflammatory and libelous commentary while so doing.

Just sayin' . . . . . . . . :D
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby Maikeru » 06/ 17/ 12 3:21 pm

pirapoi wrote:...I came across a rather long list of internet related Ontario court cases.
... ...
It surprised me how often Freedominion showed up...
... ...
Fighting internet censorship, protecting online anonymity, battling highly questionable defamation suits . . .
... ...
...lack of case law in a lot of these areas...
I was surprised once too, pirapoi - back in mid-2007 - when internet discussion forum FreeDominion was first notified of the CHRC/Gentes 'hate-speech' Complaint.

Since then, I have been fascinated by the machinations of CHRCommission employees, Richard Warman, 'Anti-Racist Canada', Warren Kinsella, John Baglow, and Michael J. Murphy, as the litigation against, and demonization of, the Fourniers of FreeDominion continues to escalate.

It is a testament to Connie and Mark that they have maintained solid support from the members of FreeDominion, and increasing respect from onlookers to the litigation that the site has attracted.
The orchestrated attempt, by opponents to the views expressed on FreeDominion, to paint the site as 'extremist' and/or 'racist' has failed.

What remains is to roll up the litigation directed against this discussion forum, to establish that the views contained herein are synonymous with the concept of 'loyal opposition' to views held by fellow Canadians.

It's actually quite an honour to be associated with an internet forum which has drawn so much attention from adherants to CHRAct Section 13', which was litigation considered so damaging to the fabric of Canadian society that it was finally expunged from law by the Government, to protect citizens from wrongful prosecution.

The demise of CHRA Section 13 marked 'the end of the beginning' of the fight to protect freedom of speech in Canada, from an ideological agenda of censorship alien to Canadian values.
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby BlawBlaw » 06/ 17/ 12 8:10 pm

WestViking wrote:There is an unexplored aspect of law respecting defamation actions:

Clean hands doctrine n. a rule of law that a person coming to court with a lawsuit or petition for a court order must be free from unfair conduct (have "clean hands" or not have done anything wrong) in regard to the subject matter of his/her claim. As an affirmative defense (positive response) a defendant might claim the plaintiff (party suing) has a "lack of clean hands" or "violates the clean hands doctrine" because the plaintiff has misled the defendant or has done something wrong regarding the matter under consideration.


I don't think the dawg can claim clean hands since he carried his agruments from blog to blog to forum and published inflammatory and libelous commentary while so doing.

Just sayin' . . . . . . . . :D


"Clean hands" is discussed more in terms of equitable relief, whether as an action or a defence. In a straight tort case like defamation, you have a whole bunch of other things to bar his claim, reduce liability, plead his failure to mitigate (I am surprised how many times Dawg has repeated - published - the offending word on his own site and elsewhere), plus counterclaims, and whatever one can make of him creating Ms. Mew just to to stir the pot.

Having now read the Appeal Court ruling, I can just picture the judges shaking their heads as they note that he isn't taking issue with being called treasonous or a traitor, and yet here we are.
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby Peter O'Donnell » 06/ 17/ 12 8:34 pm

I don't think anyone has yet taken in the fact that I am not going to subject myself to this lawfare farce.

My citizenship has to remain invalid under the assumptions of the Ontario Court of Appeal decision. There can be no question of Canadians setting themselves up to determine what my opinions should be. I am the sole arbiter of that process. If this is inconvenient for anyone, I regret that, but I want to make it absolutely clear that I will not be participating in any Canadian lawfare trials voluntarily, and if subjected to force, will remain silent.

This is the approach that should be taken by all conservative bloggers faced with lawfare. Our opinions are not subject to review by a politically correct elite. There can be no discussion or poking around the edges of this principle. If you don't get it, then you don't get freedom of speech. I will not appear anywhere to justify my opinions to anyone.
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Re: Ontario Court of Appeals ruling - Baglow v. Fourniers

Postby westcoast woman » 06/ 17/ 12 9:12 pm

Thank you, West Viking for your input, you are one of the people I learn from on FD. FD is the first site I put on each day because I value the opinions of so many who contribute.
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