When appealing to reason is fruitless?

[Faramir]

I am sure many of you, like myself, has to had to grit their teeth listening to co-workers or even family members talking about going to Cuba for a vacation. Then having to hear about the great healthcare system. Sometimes I will add a little quip like " you know that great system is NOT for the average Cuban" but feel it would be not only a waste of time but a good way to cause a family rift to explain why I think it immoral to go vacation in a country that treats its people the way it does.

Or you are in the bank and you see someone wearing a Che Guevera T-shirt in the business lineup. One feels like asking them if they realize that Che would have likely killed someone like you for just being a part of the business community? But that would probably get me a few profanities if not a punch in the face.

I have to wonder if such people are just ignorant of the reality of their idols? Or if in fact they sanction murderers like Che, thinking, you have some broken eggs when you try to make a better society? Or maybe they are just so driven by their anti-Americanism they just can't think straight.

[Gerry T. Neal]

I am sure many of you, like myself, has to had to grit their teeth listening to co-workers or even family members talking about going to Cuba for a vacation. Then having to hear about the great healthcare system. Sometimes I will add a little quip like " you know that great system is NOT for the average Cuban" but feel it would be not only a waste of time but a good way to cause a family rift to explain why I think it immoral to go vacation in a country that treats its people the way it does.

Or you are in the bank and you see someone wearing a Che Guevera T-shirt in the business lineup. One feels like asking them if they realize that Che would have likely killed someone like you for just being a part of the business community? But that would probably get me a few profanities if not a punch in the face.

I have to wonder if such people are just ignorant of the reality of their idols? Or if in fact they sanction murderers like Che, thinking, you have some broken eggs when you try to make a better society? Or maybe they are just so driven by their anti-Americanism they just can't think straight.

The problem is more widespread than that and cannot be explained by anti-Americanism. Would any sane person accuse Ronald Reagan of having been anti-American? Yet he signed into law the bill declaring an American national holiday in the name of Martin Luther King Jr. King had surrounded himself with men like Jack O'Dell and Stanley Levison who were important members of the Communist Party USA, had spoken at Communist training seminars, and had told his friends, according to his sympathetic biographer David Garrow, that he was a Marxist. King preached "non-violent resistance", while stirring up riots wherever he went, and using the threat of riots to force legislators to give in to his demands.

One result of Reagan's signing this holiday into existence is that today, American neo-conservatives are trying to claim King as a hero for the right, arguing, quite erroneously, that King was a libertarian who would have opposed affirmative action and the racial shake-down industry that was built upon the foundation he laid.

[Lee Enfield]

Che Guevera tends to be worshipped by nationalistic Latinos. None of them seem to realize that Guevera was one of those hated Gringos that they constantly rail about.

Levinson was not only a CPUSA member, but also King's speech writer. For some reason. liberals think King wrote his own speeches.Rosa Parks also had communist connections, and also strong connections to ML King.

Doors open for communists in the west.

Do you think Parks and King would have had the media captivated without their communist connections? Not me.

Remember, the US media covered up Stalin's deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians.

[DA_Champion]

Faramir,

Che Guevara is dead. He's been dead for a while. A trip to Cuba does not endorse not condemn Guevara in any way.

Meanwhile, do you criticize people taking trips to the USA? They have a murderous leader too.

Or you are in the bank and you see someone wearing a Che Guevera T-shirt in the business lineup. One feels like asking them if they realize that Che would have likely killed someone like you for just being a part of the business community? But that would probably get me a few profanities if not a punch in the face.

I think they interpret Che, in terms of the tshirts, as someone who organized resistance against global imperialism.

Naturally, any genuine resistance will lead to deaths, but it's probably fewer deaths than giving in to imperialism, as we see today with the high mortality rate in Africa for example, or the deaths in Latin America caused by the war on drugs.

[DA_Champion]

Remember, the US media covered up Stalin's deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians.

Of course it did, Russia was not an enemy at the time, it was an ally.

Russia had supported the North in the US civil war at a critical juncture in that conflict (perhaps determining the outcome), and had been allied with the US in World War I. It would then ally with the US in World War II. Obviously, US media are not going to bring up the human rights violations of an important ally. That's not what countries do.

[DA_Champion]

Two other examples I left out:

The USA did not fight against Russia in the Crimean War, it did not join the alliance of England, France, and Turkey even though it was expansionist at the time. This may be the reason Russia declined the Franco-British invitation to intervene with the South in the US civil war and thus to partition the United States.

Russia and the USA were allies in the Boxer rebellion.

Thus, it makes sense that US journalists did not expose Stalin in the 1930s. You don't expose the dirty laundry of allies.

[Faramir]

I am sure many of you, like myself, has to had to grit their teeth listening to co-workers or even family members talking about going to Cuba for a vacation. Then having to hear about the great healthcare system. Sometimes I will add a little quip like " you know that great system is NOT for the average Cuban" but feel it would be not only a waste of time but a good way to cause a family rift to explain why I think it immoral to go vacation in a country that treats its people the way it does.

Or you are in the bank and you see someone wearing a Che Guevera T-shirt in the business lineup. One feels like asking them if they realize that Che would have likely killed someone like you for just being a part of the business community? But that would probably get me a few profanities if not a punch in the face.

I have to wonder if such people are just ignorant of the reality of their idols? Or if in fact they sanction murderers like Che, thinking, you have some broken eggs when you try to make a better society? Or maybe they are just so driven by their anti-Americanism they just can't think straight.

The problem is more widespread than that and cannot be explained by anti-Americanism. Would any sane person accuse Ronald Reagan of having been anti-American? Yet he signed into law the bill declaring an American national holiday in the name of Martin Luther King Jr. King had surrounded himself with men like Jack O'Dell and Stanley Levison who were important members of the Communist Party USA, had spoken at Communist training seminars, and had told his friends, according to his sympathetic biographer David Garrow, that he was a Marxist. King preached "non-violent resistance", while stirring up riots wherever he went, and using the threat of riots to force legislators to give in to his demands.

One result of Reagan's signing this holiday into existence is that today, American neo-conservatives are trying to claim King as a hero for the right, arguing, quite erroneously, that King was a libertarian who would have opposed affirmative action and the racial shake-down industry that was built upon the foundation he laid.

That definately is NOT the history I have learned...but to be honest, I have never dug that deeply into it...

I do know we are not told the whole truth about the American Civil War. For one, it was NOT a civil war, since the South was not a faction fighting to take control of the government. It was a war of seccession. Although many in the North may have been fighting to free the slaves, southerners were fighting against their lack of representation in Congress and the fact the North was taxing the crap out of tobacco.

[Faramir]

Che Guevera tends to be worshipped by nationalistic Latinos. None of them seem to realize that Guevera was one of those hated Gringos that they constantly rail about.

Levinson was not only a CPUSA member, but also King's speech writer. For some reason. liberals think King wrote his own speeches.Rosa Parks also had communist connections, and also strong connections to ML King.

Doors open for communists in the west.

Do you think Parks and King would have had the media captivated without their communist connections? Not me.

Remember, the US media covered up Stalin's deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians.

Mandella was a communist as well, and his faction has been trading a first world South African republic for a third world one.

[Faramir]

Faramir,

Che Guevara is dead. He's been dead for a while. A trip to Cuba does not endorse not condemn Guevara in any way.

Meanwhile, do you criticize people taking trips to the USA? They have a murderous leader too.

Or you are in the bank and you see someone wearing a Che Guevera T-shirt in the business lineup. One feels like asking them if they realize that Che would have likely killed someone like you for just being a part of the business community? But that would probably get me a few profanities if not a punch in the face.

I think they interpret Che, in terms of the tshirts, as someone who organized resistance against global imperialism.

Naturally, any genuine resistance will lead to deaths, but it's probably fewer deaths than giving in to imperialism, as we see today with the high mortality rate in Africa for example, or the deaths in Latin America caused by the war on drugs.

I condemn them because their money goes to prop up a totalitarian government that continues to oppress the Cuban people.

Che was an imperialist who tried to spread Soviet Communism into South America. Thank God the right in SA terminated the bastard.

[Faramir]

Remember, the US media covered up Stalin's deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians.

Of course it did, Russia was not an enemy at the time, it was an ally.

Russia had supported the North in the US civil war at a critical juncture in that conflict (perhaps determining the outcome), and had been allied with the US in World War I. It would then ally with the US in World War II. Obviously, US media are not going to bring up the human rights violations of an important ally. That's not what countries do.

The NYT office chief in Moscow was complicit in covering up the Georgian holocaust. It was done out of ideology. We know all this from the Verona papers. In fact the leftist media cheerleaded BOTH Hitler and Stalin, and were anti-American, up to the point Hitler betrayed Stalin. Then they couldn't wait to cheerlead FDR into attacking Germany. The left are only pacifists selectively.

[Lee Enfield]

Remember, the US media covered up Stalin's deliberate starvation of the Ukrainians.

Of course it did, Russia was not an enemy at the time, it was an ally.

Russia had supported the North in the US civil war at a critical juncture in that conflict (perhaps determining the outcome), and had been allied with the US in World War I. It would then ally with the US in World War II. Obviously, US media are not going to bring up the human rights violations of an important ally. That's not what countries do.

American contracts (Remington, Westinghouse) to build rifles for Russia got cancelled in 1917 after the Bolsheviks seized control.

There is a mountain of evidence that the Bolsheviks had support at higher levels though, as you suggest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant

[smallLliberal]

Faramir,

Che Guevara is dead. He's been dead for a while. A trip to Cuba does not endorse not condemn Guevara in any way.

Meanwhile, do you criticize people taking trips to the USA? They have a murderous leader too.

Or you are in the bank and you see someone wearing a Che Guevera T-shirt in the business lineup. One feels like asking them if they realize that Che would have likely killed someone like you for just being a part of the business community? But that would probably get me a few profanities if not a punch in the face.

I think they interpret Che, in terms of the tshirts, as someone who organized resistance against global imperialism.

Naturally, any genuine resistance will lead to deaths, but it's probably fewer deaths than giving in to imperialism, as we see today with the high mortality rate in Africa for example, or the deaths in Latin America caused by the war on drugs.

Excellent post DAC. Completely agree.

The Cuban people are wonderful and they need our support. If you want to stick it to Castro, go down there and spread some of 1st world love and products around(that is what I did, I took a whole giant suitcase full of stuff and handed it out on the streets). If may surprise Faramir, but you can just walk around any street in Cuba and talk politics to the locals. They don't mind and all of them speak english. Heck, buy them a beer or two while you are at it!! You will be surprised at how much they agree with you.

[Peter O'Donnell]

When appealing to reason is fruitless ...

... if you see a flag with two red bars and a maple leaf, might as well quit right there.

[Godwin]

Faramir,

Che Guevara is dead. He's been dead for a while. A trip to Cuba does not endorse not condemn Guevara in any way.

Meanwhile, do you criticize people taking trips to the USA? They have a murderous leader too.

Or you are in the bank and you see someone wearing a Che Guevera T-shirt in the business lineup. One feels like asking them if they realize that Che would have likely killed someone like you for just being a part of the business community? But that would probably get me a few profanities if not a punch in the face.

I think they interpret Che, in terms of the tshirts, as someone who organized resistance against global imperialism.

Naturally, any genuine resistance will lead to deaths, but it's probably fewer deaths than giving in to imperialism, as we see today with the high mortality rate in Africa for example, or the deaths in Latin America caused by the war on drugs.

I condemn them because their money goes to prop up a totalitarian government that continues to oppress the Cuban people.

Che was an imperialist who tried to spread Soviet Communism into South America. Thank God the right in SA terminated the bastard.

What is your definition of totalitarian? Nazi Germany, Stalinist USSR, Maoist China come to mind. I amnot sure Cuba makes it do this list. Authoritarian dictatorship is not synonomous with totalitarian. I think totaltitarian, holocost, and genocide are termsthat should not be thrown around lightly.

[Faramir]

Faramir,

Che Guevara is dead. He's been dead for a while. A trip to Cuba does not endorse not condemn Guevara in any way.

Meanwhile, do you criticize people taking trips to the USA? They have a murderous leader too.

Or you are in the bank and you see someone wearing a Che Guevera T-shirt in the business lineup. One feels like asking them if they realize that Che would have likely killed someone like you for just being a part of the business community? But that would probably get me a few profanities if not a punch in the face.

I think they interpret Che, in terms of the tshirts, as someone who organized resistance against global imperialism.

Naturally, any genuine resistance will lead to deaths, but it's probably fewer deaths than giving in to imperialism, as we see today with the high mortality rate in Africa for example, or the deaths in Latin America caused by the war on drugs.

I condemn them because their money goes to prop up a totalitarian government that continues to oppress the Cuban people.

Che was an imperialist who tried to spread Soviet Communism into South America. Thank God the right in SA terminated the bastard.

What is your definition of totalitarian? Nazi Germany, Stalinist USSR, Maoist China come to mind. I amnot sure Cuba makes it do this list. Authoritarian dictatorship is not synonomous with totalitarian. I think totaltitarian, holocost, and genocide are termsthat should not be thrown around lightly.

Cuba is under the thumb of a murderous and oppressive regime. How is that then?