Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Documenting free speech attacks by Richard Warman, Warren Kinsella, the Human Rights Commissions and others who would seek to silence conservative discourse in Canada.

Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby Connie Fournier » 12/ 13/ 11 11:47 pm

We arrived a bit early to the Federal Court hearing this morning, and it was a good thing. There were about 20 chairs for spectators, and they were all full. Some people were waiting outside hoping to get in, some never got in.

There were, I think, 13 lawyers. They were pretty evenly divided between the two sides.

Margot Blight did a return perfomance as chief apologist for the CHRC, and Richard Warman represented himself. It made me laugh that he was doing the "fool for a client" thing because it seems like he is piling on so much crap and dragging it out for so long that we will eventually be senior citizens duking it out with no lawyers and selling chocolate bars to pay for our printing. If that's the way he wants it, though, GAME ON.

In any case, I sat with Mark in the back row on the side of the pro-censorship villains. In front of us sat Marc Lemire and Narrow Back and BigCityLib. We all pretended we didn't know BigCityLib because he's an annoying gossipy little woman. He was too chicken to call us "Daily Nazis" to our faces, so he scurried around with his head down and sneaked up to see Warman every time there was a break and he thought we'd left the room. I was glad to see it confirmed, though, that BCL is a buddy of Richard Warman's. Next time he starts trying to intimidate our witness, that information will come in handy. Thanks, dude! =D>

The villains presented their case first. For the most part, they all said the same thing. The CHRC behaved badly in the Lemire case, but Section 13 should not be scrapped for that reason. And, they are willing to give up the penalty provisions in order to keep their Precious. During Warman's turn, he took a slightly different route. He went off on a tangent about how he had REALLY wanted to mediate the case with Marc Lemire. Honest.

Interesting side note. When they were testifying, their side seemed to have blood pressure issues. Margot Blight had a beet red face, and Warman's ears were red and his bald spot was practically throbbing like a beacon.

During this time, the judge listened intently and didn't interrupt. His face was inscrutable. The funniest moment of the hearing came when the lawyer for B'nai Brith said that Section 13 is "a ringing endorsement of free speech". Everyone in the audience snorted and snickered uncontrollably. (Probably only one person in the audience was a censor and the rest were free speech supporters or media).

The second funniest moment was when Richard Warman (who obviously didn't have a clue that when all the lawyers on his side were talking about how the CHRC screwed up, they were referring to HIM), said that just because the CHRC screwed up this case shouldn't mean that HE should be deprived of HIS rights. :lol:

Throughout the entire thing, BCL looked like my youngest son in church, squirming around, taking off his shoes, staring into space looking like he was going to fall asleep. I should have brought him some animal crackers or a picture book.

We broke for lunch and went out for pizza with Shiva and NB. Then, we hurried back to make sure we got our seats back again.

Things got off to a rocky start after lunch. Barbara Kulaszka began her submissions and the judge was quite abrupt with her. She said (rightly) that Section 13 is a draconian law and she compared it to the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany because there is a 100% conviction rate. The judge went crazy! He said that was hyperbole and that she shouldn't make that comparison, then he kind of gave her the bum's rush.

The CCLA followed up with a great presentation explaining why it wasn't an option to simply cut the penalty sections from the Act. The BCLA added some more good supportive arguments that I hope NB and/or Shiva can elaborate on. Cafe's lawyer asked the judge to rule on the constitutionality of Section 13, or, to at least provide detailed reasons if he felt he couldn't. He also made some pretty strong comments about Richard Warman, saying Warman is NOT a victim.

Barbara had another opportunity to speak and she made some very good statements about how the application of Section 13 has changed since the Supreme Court found it to be constitutional in the Taylor case in 1990. She made some convincing points about how phone messaging is not the same as internet messaging. This was crucial.

Doug Christie rounded things out for our side. He was able to tell the judge that he had been there arguing for free speech in the Taylor case. He said that, at the time, it was him against 25 lawyers, and that now the numbers on each side were about even. He went on to discuss how different it was now from then, so it is necessary to re-evaluate the constitutionality of Section 13 again because of those changes.

The judge mentioned twice that he was disappointed that the Attorney General didn't show up.

I'm being rather vague about the specifics of the arguments that were made because I'm going from memory and I know that Narrow Back an Shiva have great notes so they will be able to give you a more accurate report than I can.

Margot Blight finished things off by urging the judge to simply remove the penalty provisions, and to leave her Precious alone. At one point, she was trying to find something in her notes and Richard Warman pulled a Hermione Granger and jumped up to provide the judge with the correct paragraph. Judge Judy would have thrown him out for that. :nono:

In the end, the judge candidly told us that he had been hoping that he could just wait for the Whatcott decision or for Parliament to act, or that he could just sever the penalty provisions and not have to consider the constitutionality of Section 13. However, he said it was obvious he had a lot of work ahead of him.

I think we all walked out feeling like everyone had put their best foot forward and that the judge had listened and understood the issues. Now the ball is in his court, and we wait.

On a side note, I had a lovely conversation with Anita Bromberg, lawyer for the B'nai Brith. She keeps tabs on FD and she asked me if Harry was still banned. She is not a huge fan of Section 13, as it is written. This is good.

Joseph Brean was there, too. Mark told him we liked the article he wrote about Warman's pseudonyms. We didn't mention the previous article that Maikeru referred to as Brean's "tongue bath" of Warman.

That's all I can remember right now. I'm sure I'll add to this thread as I think of more.
"Some of my policing friends would be horrified by the fact that I`ve come to speak to an Anti-Racist Action conference this morning. Some of you are probably horrified by the fact that I just used the words `police`and `friends` in the same sentence." - Richard Warman, July 6, 2005
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby Maikeru » 12/ 14/ 11 5:41 am

Connie Fournier wrote:The judge mentioned twice that he was disappointed that the Attorney General didn't show up.
Didn't anyone point out to him the man's now a backbencher who's rumoured to be retiring soon ?
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby Edward Kennedy » 12/ 14/ 11 6:10 am

"Margot Blight had a beet red face..."

That happens to me when I become angry and have to exert self control to not say what I want to say, or for saying things I should not but more often, I say things I should... :-k

How did you manage to not barf with bcl in the room? I was at a hearing/mediation representing a friend and I will have to make the effort to get out to some of these functions and meet bcl, I have a few questions and things I would like to tell him face to face. It would do him good to meet people he lies about and defames, face to face, especially those with a long memory. He might be convinced to publicly apologize for his sins. :-k

Those who he defames from the safety of his keyboard certainly have a legal right to confront the perpetrator, after all, he started it. Huh?
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby Edward Kennedy » 12/ 14/ 11 6:11 am

Maikeru wrote:
Connie Fournier wrote:The judge mentioned twice that he was disappointed that the Attorney General didn't show up.
Didn't anyone point out to him the man's now a backbencher who's rumoured to be retiring soon ?



...always the one with the witty, accurate and smartass comments...I love it.
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby Narrow Back » 12/ 14/ 11 11:18 am

9:30 we start.

Up first is Margot Blight.

Her argument is that the statute can not be struck down because of “administrative behaviour”. Or, don’t blame us for that guy Warman who we are presently throwing under a bus.

Before I address that I have to say this. Margot Blight is quite simply the most boring and nauseating speaker I have encountered in a very long time. She drones on and on saying the same things again and again. It was painful. I guarantee you; I was not the only one who felt this. I joked with Connie and Mark afterward that I was ready to jump up and scream “go ahead take all my rights, throw me jail – JUST STOP TALKING!

Back to her first point.

She and others made the argument that, let’s say for example, a police officer makes errors arresting a man for drunk driving. You don’t throw out the law because one officer messed up. What these folks did not realize is that they shot themselves in the foot in their “logic”. The thing about S 13 is that the premise is you “may” have offended someone. Therefore the charge must be laid first to see if that is the case. Being drunk is being drunk. Being hateful is subjective. If an Imam says kill the Jews he likely will not be charged. For some reason this is not hate. If Marc Lemire, who it is alleged has connections to “neo-Nazis” and “white Supremacists” (Warman stated this without being challenged by anyone) who, it is said, “hate” Jews, gays and minorities. Maybe that’s true, I have no idea BUT he is being persecuted for posting a link to an article that about AIDS so the relevance of whether he is a neo-Nazi is moot.

Another point that was made, several times, is that S13 only deals with the “worst of the worst” and that it is remedial, not punitive. I almost choked on that. What garbage! How these people can say this nonsense with a straight face is mind boggling.

As Blight droned on and repeated her same points ad nauseum the case of Taylor was mentioned again and again. This seems to be their anchor. Strike 2. The thing about Taylor is we are talking about a phone recording that people would call and listen to. The Internet is an entirely different animal and the judge appeared to fully understand this and made a point of saying so (by the way, the judge was excellent).

(A good deal of reference to Conway and the “Little Sisters” I don’t know about these cases).

Blight seemed to know she was flopping. I noticed her ears turning bright red, she was sweating and her hands were shaking.

Another point that was harped on was about JR Books online. This was apparently because Lemire had the domain name under his name. As a web guy I first wondered if he bought on their behalf. This is a common practice in web and gives a webmaster some leverage if a client doesn’t pay. Just speculating here. As for the other stuff that was “hateful” under S13, it was all taken down before Warman started his action, with the exception of the AIDS article which he removed when asked to. These are the “hate crimes” of Lemire and no one will challenge that.

At 11:00 we returned to hear from the African Legal Clinic. They talked about “irradicating discrimination” for “deeper social concerns” “improvement of the condition of less fortunate people” blah blah, etc. They also talked about S13 as a “conciliatory process”. I just wrote down: “Ha!”

11:45 Kurz gets up. The judge makes a point of saying he was very disappointed that the Attorney General was not present. CJC wasn’t either which I thought was disappointing too.

Kurz makes a comment that had us all laughing. He said S13 “endorses free speech and makes us freer”. Too much! He also threw in irrelevant remarks about the “new anti-Semitism” and something about people being too thin skinned. What a joke.


I have to stop here. Next up will be Warman. I have about 5 pages of notes about him and the others as well as some of my own observations. I will be busy with Connie and Mark today but I will try to get back to this as soon as I can.

An aside, here is BCL’s account of things. He was sitting just inches away from me but I am sure were in a different worlds.
http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com

I can say categorically that I am not even close to being a Nazi or a neo-Nazi. I can say the same about Connie and Mark. What he is implying here is truly detestable. I guess this is the best he can do. Sad that.
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby Connie Fournier » 12/ 14/ 11 11:50 am

Great report, Narrow Back. About the JR Books online thing, that is exactly what happened. Marc Lemire registered the domain for someone. That is how we did it in the old days. Most people didn't know how to register a domain. There was never any indication that Marc Lemire was involved with that site other than that.
"Some of my policing friends would be horrified by the fact that I`ve come to speak to an Anti-Racist Action conference this morning. Some of you are probably horrified by the fact that I just used the words `police`and `friends` in the same sentence." - Richard Warman, July 6, 2005
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby fourhorses » 12/ 14/ 11 12:05 pm

On a side note, I had a lovely conversation with Anita Bromberg, lawyer for the B'nai Brith. She keeps tabs on FD and she asked me if Harry was still banned. She is not a huge fan of Section 13, as it is written. This is good.



countless days and days without Harry's quick retorts .................
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby Julian » 12/ 14/ 11 12:06 pm

Narrow Back wrote:
An aside, here is BCL’s account of things. He was sitting just inches away from me but I am sure were in a different worlds.
http://bigcitylib.blogspot.com



That is a gift wrapped defamation suit, in a public court where the rules of evidence apply and the truth matters.
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby Peter O'Donnell » 12/ 14/ 11 12:10 pm

Would say there is a clear-cut defamation case in the making after reading the BCL offering. I would bring it myself if I lived in Ontario and had the money to back it up with effective action. Nazis? Seriously, BCL ... did you study the subject in school at any time?

Well, perhaps I should not be so critical of a person obviously so madly in love. His picture of himself with Richard Warman is actually just, umm, Richard Warman and a Toronto streetcar? BCL is a Toronto streetcar? That would not surprise me -- middle of the road, reminds one of Leningrad, goes nowhere.
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby Faramir » 12/ 14/ 11 12:14 pm

Is it fair to say this judge is not keen to rule on the constitutionality of Section 13? Feaking out about those comparisons to Nazi Germany shows the judge may have some Section 13 sympathies....scary.
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby Peter O'Donnell » 12/ 14/ 11 12:25 pm

Canadian elitists can never imagine that their perfect country could be in error on any point (unless Harper changed a perfect Liberal policy). This is really the same mentality that brought such misery to the two examples that Barb cited. Of course the degree of oppression has been on a different scale, after all, this is super-polite Canada. When they don't want you here, they just say "go away, don't live here, you solve the problem of having no money to leave on your own time." Much more civilized than a concentration camp or a gulag. There is even a complementary donut.
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby WestViking » 12/ 14/ 11 12:27 pm

Faramir wrote:Is it fair to say this judge is not keen to rule on the constitutionality of Section 13? Feaking out about those comparisons to Nazi Germany shows the judge may have some Section 13 sympathies....scary.

With respect, the Nazi comparison is misused and overused. An impartial, reasonable judge is looking for more substantial argument than an outdated and tired comparison to fascism. I am not concerned over his brusque refusal to entertain the comparison. His ruling will be based on more substantive reasoning.
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby fourhorses » 12/ 14/ 11 12:38 pm

Peter O'Donnell wrote: His picture of himself with Richard Warman is actually just, umm, Richard Warman and a Toronto streetcar? BCL is a Toronto streetcar? That would not surprise me -- middle of the road, reminds one of Leningrad, goes nowhere.


Looking closely, that streetcar did have a red stripe ....


This BCL fellow raises an interesting approach
The young gal from the African Canadian Legal clinic (Moya Teklu) argued that there has been so little analysis of the CHRC's actual behavior that it would have been impossible for Athanasios D. Hadjis (the tribunal chair that had ruled for Lemire last go-round) to know whether this behavior had changed over time--and thus whether it had become less conciliatory, more litiguous


Where was this Moya Teklu the last few years? Lemire went to great lengths to expose the behavior of the CHRC. Many of his efforts were thwarted by the CHRT, who appeared to be acting in collusion with the CHRC desires to raise hurdles and blockades to these investigations.

Additionally, there were many instances of third party bloggers posting analysis of various transcripts, documents and trails. In fact, there were law suits and threats of other law suits raised as a result of various investigations and questions posed by inquiring minds. There really was no lack of analysis of the CHRC's behavior, but certainly was a lot of opposition from the pro s13 side
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby pirapoi » 12/ 14/ 11 1:14 pm

Narrow Back wrote:
Another point that was harped on was about JR Books online. This was apparently because Lemire had the domain name under his name.


It seems strange to me that they would even want to bring that up after Athanasios D. Hadjis 2009 decision:

http://chrt-tcdp.gc.ca/aspinc/search/vhtml-eng.asp?doid=981&lg=_e&isruling=0#1000029

(ii) Bernard Klatt's evidence regarding who-is searches and JRBooksonline.com
. . .
[34] To demonstrate how unreliable this information can be, two who-is searches were entered into evidence containing
information about the domain name registrations of two websites. The who-is searches indicated that Mr. Warman was the registrant of both of these websites. Mr. Warman testified that he had never heard of these websites before. Indeed, as Mr. Klatt explained in his testimony, he witnessed Mr. Lemire create both registrations. Thus, while the who-is searches were indicating that Mr. Warman was the registrant for the domain names of both websites, he was, in fact, not associated with any of them. :D
/ (smilie mine, not in original)


(iii) Conclusions regarding JRBooksonline.com

[47] In sum, I find that there is insufficient evidence to establish, even on a prima facie basis, that Mr. Lemire or a
group of persons that includes him, communicated or caused to be communicated, the material found on JRBooksonline.com, within the meaning of s. 13. There is no evidence linking him to this website, other than a who-is search, the content of which is inherently unreliable. The evidence, even if believed, is insufficient to cover the allegations made. Besides, I find that a reasonable and non-pretextual explanation has been advanced to explain the presence of Mr. Lemire's name on the 2004 who-is search. I am therefore convinced that Mr. Lemire did not engage in the discriminatory practice alleged by Mr. Warman, with respect to JRBooksonline.com.
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Re: Lemire Federal Court Hearing today - FDer Reports

Postby backhoe » 12/ 14/ 11 2:16 pm

Peter O'Donnell wrote:Would say there is a clear-cut defamation case in the making after reading the BCL offering. I would bring it myself if I lived in Ontario and had the money to back it up with effective action. Nazis? Seriously, BCL ... did you study the subject in school at any time?

Well, perhaps I should not be so critical of a person obviously so madly in love. His picture of himself with Richard Warman is actually just, umm, Richard Warman and a Toronto streetcar? BCL is a Toronto streetcar? That would not surprise me -- middle of the road, reminds one of Leningrad, goes nowhere.


I put on my waders & weldor's gauntlets and poked under the covers there...

What.
A.
Creep.

And what's with this Man-Love betwixt Warman & this guy? ( Not that there's anything wrong with that... )
And the streetcar? Named "desire?"
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