Social Conservative vs. Social Liberal

[avray]

Anyone have any theories why social liberals are embraced by their party and social conservatives are USED by "our" party?

My guess is, this hidden agenda nonsense will be a thorn in the CPC side until one of two things happen:

1. CPC openly rejects social conservatives and stops seeking their support.
Or
2. They decide that the abortion needs to be addressed and decides to go toe to toe (and win) against the left.

The only people who want to debate abortion less than the CPC, is the libs and ndp, and CPC doesn't get this.

NOTE TO CPC: IF THE LIBS REFUSE DEBATE ON ANY ISSUE, THEN THAT'S WHERE YOU SHOULD BE FOCUSING YOUR DEBATE. IT MEANS THEY'RE SCARED!!!!

Bring the fight to the doorstep of the libs, win, and settle this once and for all. Sweep the legs out from under the libs on this issue once and for all.

Until the CPC shows some backbone, not only does Harper not get this conservative's vote, I'm actively campaigning against him.
Liberals embrace social conservative issues, CPC does not, and that's why we lose.

I'm sick of this.

[SUZANNE]

CPC don't embrace their socons because socons keep voting for them.

Stop voting for the Red Tories.

The only way to teach a party a lesson is to stop voting for them.

[Canadian Dad]

You're right suzanne. That's exactly what happened with the left wing parties. They started voting CPC because the left-parties weren't liberal enough!

avray, I do agree with you. Perhaps if the CPC gets a majority the time will be perfect to really push for the socon agenda.

[avray]

You're right suzanne. That's exactly what happened with the left wing parties. They started voting CPC because the left-parties weren't liberal enough!

avray, I do agree with you. Perhaps if the CPC gets a majority the time will be perfect to really push for the socon agenda.

My problem with this, though, is because some socons are hopeful, it gives credibility to the "hidden agenda" accusation. I think socons should bring the fight to the CPC, and the CPC should bring the fight to the libs. It needs to be openly discussed in order to warm the idea of abortion law to Canadians. That's why the left don't want to talk about it. They know they will lose.

[politics101]

The great irony here is that, while Prime Minister Harper will always be viewed as a right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjob by the extreme left, right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjobs see him as anything but. He is a man without a home. The reality is Mr. Harper is a clever man who knows how to play the game. Neither extreme flies in this country, and he knows that.

[RedDog]

Where do fiscal conservatives go in such a social welfare country with nearly everyone on the take? I suppose ultimately we leave. Who will pay then?

[T.G.]

Neither extreme flies in this country, and he knows that.

Yet we HAVE an extreme in this country ... abortion throughout nine months of pregnancy and, in almost all cases, paid for through the public purse. Not to mention total abandonment to the radical homosexual agenda, including funding of gay pride parades.

I'd love to see what you say be true -- no kowtowing to any extreme agenda. But it just isn't what's going on.

[Eddy]

Where do fiscal conservatives go in such a social welfare country with nearly everyone on the take? I suppose ultimately we leave. Who will pay then?

It depends in part by how you define fiscal conservativism, but in my mind property ownership goes hand in hand with support for the family as the basic unit of society. I would find it hard to believe that in a society with healthy families, parents will want the government to do the parenting for them. Support for families in difficulty and pregnant women in difficulty would be aimed not at supporting them forever, but at helping them participate in a productive free society.

Of course this is based on the idea that you don't kill the unborn. If killing the unborn is an option, then fiscal conservatives will be lost as the State pays for that, pays for 'gender reassignment therapy', pays for daycare, pays for therapy, etc.

[avray]

The great irony here is that, while Prime Minister Harper will always be viewed as a right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjob by the extreme left, right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjobs see him as anything but. He is a man without a home. The reality is Mr. Harper is a clever man who knows how to play the game. Neither extreme flies in this country, and he knows that.

I hear what your saying but I can't remember hearing anyone (left or right) labelling Harper as being a bible thumping nutjob (I assume you mean Christian). I think Harper IS cowtowing to the extreme; the extreme left.

I mean this respectfully but your eagerness to label all socons as BTNJs, and to marginalize Christians is part of the problem the CPC will always have so long as they try to woo the socon vote. Asking the government to stop abortions on a baby's due date is hardly an extreme position. Don't you think?

[The Devil's Advocate]

The great irony here is that, while Prime Minister Harper will always be viewed as a right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjob by the extreme left, right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjobs see him as anything but. He is a man without a home. The reality is Mr. Harper is a clever man who knows how to play the game. Neither extreme flies in this country, and he knows that.

I hear what your saying but I can't remember hearing anyone (left or right) labelling Harper as being a bible thumping nutjob (I assume you mean Christian). I think Harper IS cowtowing to the extreme; the extreme left.

I mean this respectfully but your eagerness to label all socons as BTNJs, and to marginalize Christians is part of the problem the CPC will always have so long as they try to woo the socon vote. Asking the government to stop abortions on a baby's due date is hardly an extreme position. Don't you think?

Except that's not the request most often made. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any of the major pro-life groups ever making official comments that would suggest a compromise prosition. The feeling, I think, is that they're most of the one-is-too-many crowd.

If Harper had a fault (and to be sure, he's got a few) it's that he's not kowtowing at all. Neither end of the spectrum is happy with him, and part of me suspects he considers that position, the muddy, well populated middle, to be a good one to in charge of. Call it bell-curve politics, he knows well enough where the voters, and the votes, are usually found.

[Eddy]

The great irony here is that, while Prime Minister Harper will always be viewed as a right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjob by the extreme left, right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjobs see him as anything but. He is a man without a home. The reality is Mr. Harper is a clever man who knows how to play the game. Neither extreme flies in this country, and he knows that.

I hear what your saying but I can't remember hearing anyone (left or right) labelling Harper as being a bible thumping nutjob (I assume you mean Christian). I think Harper IS cowtowing to the extreme; the extreme left.

I mean this respectfully but your eagerness to label all socons as BTNJs, and to marginalize Christians is part of the problem the CPC will always have so long as they try to woo the socon vote. Asking the government to stop abortions on a baby's due date is hardly an extreme position. Don't you think?

Except that's not the request most often made. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any of the major pro-life groups ever making official comments that would suggest a compromise prosition. The feeling, I think, is that they're most of the one-is-too-many crowd.

If Harper had a fault (and to be sure, he's got a few) it's that he's not kowtowing at all. Neither end of the spectrum is happy with him, and part of me suspects he considers that position, the muddy, well populated middle, to be a good one to in charge of. Call it bell-curve politics, he knows well enough where the voters, and the votes, are usually found.

It's not up to those of us who are pro-life to suggest compromises to politicians who make policy - it's up to them. Just because I believe abortion is always wrong doesn't mean that I can't understand that banning late-term abortions is better than not banning them.

I don't know if MSM labels Harper as a frothing fundamentalist but my memory seems to recall that some commentators in national papers do.

[The Devil's Advocate]

The great irony here is that, while Prime Minister Harper will always be viewed as a right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjob by the extreme left, right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjobs see him as anything but. He is a man without a home. The reality is Mr. Harper is a clever man who knows how to play the game. Neither extreme flies in this country, and he knows that.

I hear what your saying but I can't remember hearing anyone (left or right) labelling Harper as being a bible thumping nutjob (I assume you mean Christian). I think Harper IS cowtowing to the extreme; the extreme left.

I mean this respectfully but your eagerness to label all socons as BTNJs, and to marginalize Christians is part of the problem the CPC will always have so long as they try to woo the socon vote. Asking the government to stop abortions on a baby's due date is hardly an extreme position. Don't you think?

Except that's not the request most often made. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall any of the major pro-life groups ever making official comments that would suggest a compromise prosition. The feeling, I think, is that they're most of the one-is-too-many crowd.

If Harper had a fault (and to be sure, he's got a few) it's that he's not kowtowing at all. Neither end of the spectrum is happy with him, and part of me suspects he considers that position, the muddy, well populated middle, to be a good one to in charge of. Call it bell-curve politics, he knows well enough where the voters, and the votes, are usually found.

It's not up to those of us who are pro-life to suggest compromises to politicians who make policy - it's up to them. Just because I believe abortion is always wrong doesn't mean that I can't understand that banning late-term abortions is better than not banning them.

I don't know if MSM labels Harper as a frothing fundamentalist but my memory seems to recall that some commentators in national papers do.

You don't have to do anything at all, I just thought actually being part of a solution may appeal to you. By the way, when you leave things up to politicians, you get exactly what they want you to have. As I see it, that's precisely the problem here.

[politics101]

The great irony here is that, while Prime Minister Harper will always be viewed as a right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjob by the extreme left, right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjobs see him as anything but. He is a man without a home. The reality is Mr. Harper is a clever man who knows how to play the game. Neither extreme flies in this country, and he knows that.

I hear what your saying but I can't remember hearing anyone (left or right) labelling Harper as being a bible thumping nutjob (I assume you mean Christian). I think Harper IS cowtowing to the extreme; the extreme left.

I mean this respectfully but your eagerness to label all socons as BTNJs, and to marginalize Christians is part of the problem the CPC will always have so long as they try to woo the socon vote. Asking the government to stop abortions on a baby's due date is hardly an extreme position. Don't you think?

I'm glad you brought this up because in no way was I referring to ALL Christians as BTNJs (snappy acronym, I like it). I know this not to be the case. Extremists on the left side of the political spectrum, on the other hand, view the very moderate and pragmatic Mr. Harper as such. (You better believe it). He can pronounce otherwise till' he's blue in the face but it won't sway their opinion. As for abortion, I would like to see some limits placed on the practice. But as 'Devil's Advocate' correctly points out, the people that are most passionate on both sides of this issue don't seem to want to budge an inch.

[The Devil's Advocate]

The great irony here is that, while Prime Minister Harper will always be viewed as a right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjob by the extreme left, right-wing, Bible-thumping nutjobs see him as anything but. He is a man without a home. The reality is Mr. Harper is a clever man who knows how to play the game. Neither extreme flies in this country, and he knows that.

I hear what your saying but I can't remember hearing anyone (left or right) labelling Harper as being a bible thumping nutjob (I assume you mean Christian). I think Harper IS cowtowing to the extreme; the extreme left.

I mean this respectfully but your eagerness to label all socons as BTNJs, and to marginalize Christians is part of the problem the CPC will always have so long as they try to woo the socon vote. Asking the government to stop abortions on a baby's due date is hardly an extreme position. Don't you think?

I'm glad you brought this up because in no way was I referring to ALL Christians as BTNJs (snappy acronym, I like it). I know this not to be the case. Extremists on the left side of the political spectrum, on the other hand, view the very moderate and pragmatic Mr. Harper as such. (You better believe it). He can pronounce otherwise till' he's blue in the face but it won't sway their opinion. As for abortion, I would like to see some limits placed on the practice. But as 'Devil's Advocate' correctly points out, the people that are most passionate on both sides of this issue don't seem to want to budge an inch.

Thanks, but I think it's more than that, I don't think they can. They've defined themselves by their views, changing them now isn't even something they'd be able to do. If nothing else, they'd risk losing all sense of credibility. For example, say the Campaign Life Coalition came out and said "Fine, if it makes everyone happy, we'd be OK with some abortions still occuring" everyone would think they'd gone nuts. Likewise, if Morgentaler ever stood up and said "Maybe a few restrictions would be OK" no one on that side of the debate would ever listen to him again.

The old groups can't do it. If there's going to be a group calling for a balanced approach, it's not one we've heard from before.

[Connie Fournier]

Sorry, guys, but you are wrong about prolifers being unwilling to offer a compromise solution.

In 2006 I took a motion to the CPC Convention in Montreal that would have added a section to the CPC Policy opposing Partial Birth Abortion. Just Partial Birth Abortion.

Before it could even be debated, Stephen Harper denounced it in a speech the night before, so it was defeated by a small margin.