Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

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Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby Dogpatch » 03/ 01/ 12 10:11 pm

Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

01/03/2012 7:14:42 PM
CTVNews.ca Staff

Quebec City police used tear gas to disperse thousands of students protesting planned tuition hikes outside the provincial legislature Thursday.

The situation escalated when students started jumping across barriers erected around the national assembly. Students and members of the riot squad were pushing and shoving each other before tear gas was deployed.

The crowd scattered as protesters coughed and cried from the effects of the gas, CTV Montreal's Maya Johnson reported.

"Why is there a barrier? There is no need for that," one male protester told CTV News. "We are pacifists." :roll:

Since Jean Charest's government announced plans to raise tuition fees to about $3,800 from $2,200 over the next five years, students have been organizing demonstrations and mass walkouts in protest.

About 37 students were arrested two weeks ago when they occupied a junior college in Montreal and threw objects at police officers.

Although Quebec's tuition fees will remain among the lowest in Canada, students say they can't afford the hikes.

Finance Minister Raymond Bachand said raising tuitions is "only fair" to taxpayers, who will be on the hook for a $3-billion investment in the province's universities over the next five years.

Opposition parties have sided with the students, but the government says it's not budging.
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby RedDog » 03/ 02/ 12 7:03 am

Not many of these students are evidently in economics or business programs. The Quebec debt is past $245 billion dollars and escalating in a blur. See here: http://www.iedm.org/27-quebec-debt-clock
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby Number 6 » 03/ 02/ 12 10:33 am

"The French are revolting!"

"Yes, they certainly are."

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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby Dogpatch » 03/ 02/ 12 11:37 am

RedDog wrote:Not many of these students are evidently in economics or business programs. The Quebec debt is past $245 billion dollars and escalating in a blur. See here: http://www.iedm.org/27-quebec-debt-clock


yeah but the leftists, especially teachers and students, don't care - they've had a free ride all of their life
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby Dogpatch » 03/ 04/ 12 8:33 pm

Student protestors all across Spain took to the streets today to protest cuts in state funding for education. Police were forced to fire warning shots over the heads of a mob in Barcelona that burned dumpsters and vehicles.

A different form of student protest took place in Tunisia, where university professors were attacked by students because of a new rule prohibiting the veil. Veiled students had been denied entry to classrooms, and angry students responded with violence against their teachers.
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2012/ ... 12012.html

Seems to me that students the world over have too many hormones and not enough brain cells
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby Machiaveli » 03/ 04/ 12 8:55 pm

I agree with the general premise of the protesters. In this 21st century we have to have a highly educated, highly specialized population. We have to maintain and encourage a high access to higher education as much as possible. This can be done through loans, scholarships, bursaries for rewarding success, etc.

Having attended a University in Quebec, I can attest that the quality of higher education is lacking, mainly due to funding. Profs are overworked, lack the time to publish and conduct any research and classrooms are filled to the brink. Aside from McGill and HEC , universities in Quebec aren't very reputable.

funding has to be increased, and unfortunately, in an over-taxed cash strapped province, it's only going to happen through tuition hikes.
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby Dogpatch » 03/ 04/ 12 8:58 pm

Machiaveli wrote:I agree with the general premise of the protesters. In this 21st century we have to have a highly educated, highly specialized population. We have to maintain and encourage a high access to higher education as much as possible. This can be done through loans, scholarships, bursaries for rewarding success, etc.

Having attended a University in Quebec, I can attest that the quality of higher education is lacking, mainly due to funding. Profs are overworked, lack the time to publish and conduct any research and classrooms are filled to the brink. Aside from McGill and HEC , universities in Quebec aren't very reputable.

funding has to be increased, and unfortunately, in an over-taxed cash strapped province, it's only going to happen through tuition hikes.


So what you're saying is that the protesting students want a free ride?
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby styky » 03/ 04/ 12 9:11 pm

Did you ever think you would see the day when students take to the streets and scream poor treatment over paying the lowest price for an education in the country. ](*,)
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby Machiaveli » 03/ 04/ 12 10:18 pm

Dogpatch wrote:
Machiaveli wrote:I agree with the general premise of the protesters. In this 21st century we have to have a highly educated, highly specialized population. We have to maintain and encourage a high access to higher education as much as possible. This can be done through loans, scholarships, bursaries for rewarding success, etc.

Having attended a University in Quebec, I can attest that the quality of higher education is lacking, mainly due to funding. Profs are overworked, lack the time to publish and conduct any research and classrooms are filled to the brink. Aside from McGill and HEC , universities in Quebec aren't very reputable.

funding has to be increased, and unfortunately, in an over-taxed cash strapped province, it's only going to happen through tuition hikes.


So what you're saying is that the protesting students want a free ride?


I just think their views may be a little misguided, if not short-sighted and unrealistic. I am sure some of them are in favor of paying next to nothing in tuition fees now, and paying some 60% in income taxes later..I think that's a fair viewpoint.

But a swath of them, I am sure, are in favor of low fees now, and lower taxes once they are part of the workforce. Clearly with Quebec's finances, you can't have that both ways..

I would be hesitant to group each and every single protesting student in the same basket.
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby Machiaveli » 03/ 04/ 12 10:26 pm

styky wrote:Did you ever think you would see the day when students take to the streets and scream poor treatment over paying the lowest price for an education in the country. ](*,)


Relative to the OECD, Canada's tuition fees are amongst the highest. Being more left leaning, I think Quebec students compare themselves to (and would like to see) a European model of tertiary education, where fees are next to nil if not free.
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby WestViking » 03/ 04/ 12 10:42 pm

Machiaveli wrote:
styky wrote:Did you ever think you would see the day when students take to the streets and scream poor treatment over paying the lowest price for an education in the country. ](*,)
Relative to the OECD, Canada's tuition fees are amongst the highest. Being more left leaning, I think Quebec students compare themselves to (and would like to see) a European model of tertiary education, where fees are next to nil if not free.
The EU and Euro are on their way to the dustbin. Therein lays a lesson on free schooling.
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby Machiaveli » 03/ 04/ 12 10:44 pm

WestViking wrote:
Machiaveli wrote:
styky wrote:Did you ever think you would see the day when students take to the streets and scream poor treatment over paying the lowest price for an education in the country. ](*,)
Relative to the OECD, Canada's tuition fees are amongst the highest. Being more left leaning, I think Quebec students compare themselves to (and would like to see) a European model of tertiary education, where fees are next to nil if not free.
The EU and Euro are on their way to the dustbin. Therein lays a lesson on free schooling.


Not sure I see the link...

Besides, Euro-zone governments spend less as a %GDP on tertiary education than Canada or the US. so that point, if any, is moot.
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby BlawBlaw » 03/ 05/ 12 6:13 am

Machiaveli wrote:I agree with the general premise of the protesters. In this 21st century we have to have a highly educated, highly specialized population. We have to maintain and encourage a high access to higher education as much as possible. This can be done through loans, scholarships, bursaries for rewarding success, etc.


University shouldn't be for everyone. It should be for people who can demonstrate the ability to absorb, apply and then develop intellectually challenging and complex material. About 60% or more of the population should have zero chance of attending.

Loans should be widely available, to a point: failing students shouldn't be loaned money any more than a failing business should. Bursaries are generally for unexceptional students of limited means, in contrast to scholarships which are given to exceptional students.

However, in practice loans function partially as grants or bursaries as they are means tested and there are various loan forgiveness programs once you graduate.

People freaked out at one point when they wanted a $7 per year user fee to have a library card, I think that has more justification for the masses to be rioting in the streets. With strong library systems, private sector educational companies, and especially with the rise of the internet, self-educating is absurdly easy for anyone east of the mean on the bell curve.

The problem is that most university students don't want an education, they want a piece of paper that says they know something so that they can go out and earn 30% more than someone without that piece of paper. Plus they want to socialize and have other people pay to support their clubs and pet causes and athletics.

Having attended a University in Quebec, I can attest that the quality of higher education is lacking, mainly due to funding. Profs are overworked, lack the time to publish and conduct any research and classrooms are filled to the brink. Aside from McGill and HEC , universities in Quebec aren't very reputable.


One over-arching problem is trying to separate out the cost of teaching from the cost of research. Tuition and "education" transfers from the government should not be subsidizing research projects. I put it in quotes because research has very little to do with actually educating undergrads. If it could be separated out, then you could figure out the "full cost of education" and then make a judgement call of how much of that cost should be paid by the person who receives its primary benefits - the student - and how much the state should be subsidizing students.

funding has to be increased, and unfortunately, in an over-taxed cash strapped province, it's only going to happen through tuition hikes.


The private sector is an option, although these smelly marxists would shriek at the thought of capitalism or the free market invading the little socialist paradise called university.

Somebody has to pay for research, and, as I said, it probably shouldn't be the students. If a professor's research have any reasonably discernable marketable value, then the market will step up to fund it. If it has no market value then the public will have to fund it. Keep in mind that "no market value" does not mean "no value", at least not necessarily. Research can be so theoretical that it cannot be patented and therefore has almost no market value even if the results can springboard other areas of reasearch which can and do. Otherwise, research can be so high-minded that it doesn't yield marketable results. Will the discovery of the Higgs Boson give way to a flurry of technologies with market potential? Probably not, and to the extent that it would you run into the first problem I mentioned. So how much private money is going to CERN? The difficulty is separating what is high minded from what is absolute pedantic twaddle.
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby BlawBlaw » 03/ 05/ 12 6:51 am

Machiaveli wrote:
styky wrote:Did you ever think you would see the day when students take to the streets and scream poor treatment over paying the lowest price for an education in the country. ](*,)


Relative to the OECD, Canada's tuition fees are amongst the highest. Being more left leaning, I think Quebec students compare themselves to (and would like to see) a European model of tertiary education, where fees are next to nil if not free.


I guess the first question is: how did they compare tuition fees? Was it at exchange rate, PPP, % of GDP/Capita, % of GDP/Capita PPP, or some other measure?

In the UK, for instance, the tuition used to be about $4300 but it was raised a couple of years ago to $14,000 (at exchange rate).

On the other hand there is this:

http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/nationa ... 0315F.HTML

"S. Korea ranks 3rd in college tuition fees among OECD countries"

How did they figure that out? "The share of the public sector in college education costs", and "percent of the nation's total public education costs" covered by government scholarships and student loans. In other words, a completely relative measure.

If you go here:

http://www.oecd.org/document/24/0,3746, ... _1,00.html

You might find the answer, but I have not had the time to go through it in detail.
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Re: Quebec students clash with police at tuition hike rally

Postby styky » 03/ 09/ 12 9:34 pm

Quebec students get cushy deal on tuition - thanks to Alberta


By Licia Corbella, Postmedia News March 9, 2012



CALGARY - It would appear Quebec university students need to learn a lesson on equalization, fairness and pulling their own weight. Frankly, so does Premier Jean Charest and the rest of the province, as well.

Quebec post-secondary students protested and some even rioted this past week in downtown Montreal over the provincial government's proposed increases to post-secondary school tuition fees.

Quebec plans to increase tuition by $325 for each of the next five years, which may sound like a lot to some, but not to most other university students in the rest of the country who pay much more than those in Quebec.

Currently, of the 10 universities with the cheapest tuition in Canada, seven are in Quebec. But that tuition is only inexpensive if you are a Quebec resident. If you are not a resident of Quebec, of the 10 most costly tuitions in Canada, five are in Quebec and are the same ones that are the least expensive for Quebec students.

As Charest keeps trying to inform these angry students, even with the annual increases factored in, the average tuition in Quebec would rise to only $3,793 per year, which would still be among the lowest tuitions in Canada. Tuition at the University of Calgary, for instance, is $5,257 or $6,264 when you include the fees. Currently, Canada's top-ranked university - McGill - is the eighth cheapest university in Canada for Quebecers. It charges just $2,168 for basic tuition or $3,727 once all of the compulsory fees are factored in. But, for an out-of-province student - let's say an Albertan - basic tuition at McGill costs $5,858 and increases to $7,417 once the fees are added, making it the third-most expensive tuition in the country for non-Quebecers.

Charest has tried to reason with the protesting pupils, pointing out that Quebec students are paying just 14 per cent of their actual cost of education and that it's a great investment, since they will earn much more than those who do not go on to higher education over the course of their lives and will be healthier and more fulfilled as a result. What's more, while the cost of virtually everything else goes up annually, tuition in Quebec remained frozen for 33 of the last 43 years.

But here's where Charest gets an F. He was quoted as saying recently: ``It's through taxpayers here . . . that we're going to do the lion's share of financing of our universities and colleges. Then we're asking students to assume their fair share.''

The problem with that quote is the word: ``here.''

It's not the taxpayers of Quebec who are paying the lion's share of the financing of Quebec's university students' tuitions - it's the taxpayers in Alberta who are.

According to Alberta Finance, in 2009 - which is the last year for which data are available for all provinces - Alberta was the only net contributor to Confederation. For all of you who hate oil and gas, you need to stop and contemplate that fact for a while. In that year alone, Alberta sent almost $16 billion more to the federal government than it got back in federal transfers.

In that same year, Albertans - including individuals and corporations - paid $35.990 billion gross in taxes to the federal government. Alberta received $19.997 billion back in transfers from the federal government, meaning the rest of Canada got $15.993 billion net from Alberta that year. Without trying to be repetitive, Alberta was the only ``have'' province in Canada that year. Put that bitumen in your pipes and smoke it, Greenpeace.

Now, take a wild guess which province got the ``lion's share'' of Alberta's largesse? If you guessed Quebec, you'd be correct. Quebec received $13.641 billion in equalization payments from the feds in 2009 and since, as already mentioned, Alberta was the only net contributor to Confederation, all of that money Quebec received came from Alberta.

Equalization, in case Quebec students are unclear, is a program designed to make the government services available to Canadians equal across the country. Except we all know that Quebec is more equal than others. Its students get cheaper tuition, the government provides $7-a-day daycare - that is not available anywhere else in the country - and the Quebec government subsidizes hydro rates for its citizens.

As a result, every Quebecer received the equivalent of $1,743 more from the feds than they paid into Confederation. Albertans, by contrast, contributed a net of $4,356 for every man, woman and child in 2009. In other words, every Albertan gave more than any Quebecer pays for tuition in their province, while Albertans pay much more.

Since many of the media elites in Quebec are separatists, this information never seems to get distributed in Quebec. Indeed, Quebecers seem to believe that they are subsidizing the oilsands - a lie that now deceased NDP leader Jack Layton spread during the last general election. But it only stands to reason that if Quebecers took a brief lesson in equalization and studied the numbers even briefly, it's highly likely even the most strident pure laine's appetite for sovereignty would evaporate as quickly as the tear gas Quebec police have been shooting on those student protesters.

What's really curious about all of this is why students in Alberta aren't in the streets protesting as a result. Maybe it's because they're all working too hard in their evil oilpatch jobs subsidizing Quebec students' tuitions and trying to save enough money for their expensive university tuitions at the same time.

Calgary Herald
http://www.canada.com/Quebec+students+c ... story.html
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