Individual Private Property Ownership Rights

[rwebb]

Your use of a Crown telco to prove your point misses the obvious. The state has no business running a phone company or any other business. A government-run company like MTS (or Sasktel here in Saskatchewan) always ends up being a government-enforced monopoly which harms the local economy by scaring away potential private-sector competition.

"The obvious" in this case is that Manitobans were better off in every respect before MTS was privatized. Okay, not all Manitobans. The ones who bought MTS shares during the IPO and the flipped them a year later did pretty well. As for the rest of us, we lost a valuable revenue source, plus our phone rates went from the lowest in the country to the second-highest. (Speaking of "harming the local economy"...)

[SaskBigPicture]

Your use of a Crown telco to prove your point misses the obvious. The state has no business running a phone company or any other business. A government-run company like MTS (or Sasktel here in Saskatchewan) always ends up being a government-enforced monopoly which harms the local economy by scaring away potential private-sector competition.

"The obvious" in this case is that Manitobans were better off in every respect before MTS was privatized. Okay, not all Manitobans. The ones who bought MTS shares during the IPO and the flipped them a year later did pretty well. As for the rest of us, we lost a valuable revenue source, plus our phone rates went from the lowest in the country to the second-highest. (Speaking of "harming the local economy"...)

Better off...subsidizing low telephone rates with tax dollars?
Better off...filtering your "valuable revenue source" through the bureaucracy of a crown corporation and its bloated government-union payroll?
Better off...with no or limited market choice in phone service?
Exactly how were you better off?

Are you still an MTS customer? If your phone rates with MTS are too high for your taste, you should exercise your market power and conduct business with another company. Let MTS attempt to win you back as a customer. A competitive market is a beautiful thing.

[rwebb]

Better off...subsidizing low telephone rates with tax dollars?

MTS was not subsidized.

Better off...filtering your "valuable revenue source" through the bureaucracy of a crown corporation and its bloated government-union payroll?

All large organizations, public or private, necessarily have bureaucracies. There is just as much bureaucracy in MTS now as there was when it was a crown corp. You're probably right that they treated their employees better though.

Better off...with no or limited market choice in phone service?

There is still no market choice for basic phone service.

[Clinton P. Desveaux]

Better off...subsidizing low telephone rates with tax dollars?

MTS was not subsidized.

Better off...filtering your "valuable revenue source" through the bureaucracy of a crown corporation and its bloated government-union payroll?

All large organizations, public or private, necessarily have bureaucracies. There is just as much bureaucracy in MTS now as there was when it was a crown corp. You're probably right that they treated their employees better though.

Better off...with no or limited market choice in phone service?

There is still no market choice for basic phone service.

This is 100% FALSE, there are a number of different wireless phone providers which provide free airtime, free long distance and so on. You are LAZY or STUPID. Furthermore it was my understanding that the cable tv companies are also looking to add phone service to their options.

Admit it, you are a communist, you want property placed in the hand of government and you don't trust individuals to make the right choices in the market place. Private Property Ownership Rights is a key tenet of freedom.

[rwebb]

This is 100% FALSE, there are a number of different wireless phone providers which provide free airtime, free long distance and so on.

I said there is no market choice for basic phone service, not wireless or long distance.

You are LAZY or STUPID.

Yeah, and you're fat and ugly.

Furthermore it was my understanding that the cable tv companies are also looking to add phone service to their options.

No doubt, but that would be bundled with cable TV service -- again, not just a basic phone line.

[SaskBigPicture]

There is still no market choice for basic phone service.

That is not correct. Go to Shaw's website and click on the link to Shaw Digital Phone. It should be available in Winnipeg as we speak.

http://www.shaw.ca/en-ca/ProductsServices/DigitalPhone/

You complain a great deal about MTS, yet are strangely loyal to that company. Cut it out of your life like a bad habit.

[Clinton P. Desveaux]

There is still no market choice for basic phone service.

That is not correct. Go to Shaw's website and click on the link to Shaw Digital Phone. It should be available in Winnipeg as we speak.

http://www.shaw.ca/en-ca/ProductsServices/DigitalPhone/

You complain a great deal about MTS, yet are strangely loyal to that company. Cut it out of your life like a bad habit.

Furthermore you can purchase basic wireless phone service and basic wireless phone cards which provides the EXACT same service as a regular land line service. He is simply to lazy to look for alternatives as both you and I clearly understand.

[SaskBigPicture]

There is still no market choice for basic phone service.

That is not correct. Go to Shaw's website and click on the link to Shaw Digital Phone. It should be available in Winnipeg as we speak.

http://www.shaw.ca/en-ca/ProductsServices/DigitalPhone/

You complain a great deal about MTS, yet are strangely loyal to that company. Cut it out of your life like a bad habit.

Furthermore you can purchase basic wireless phone service and basic wireless phone cards which provides the EXACT same service as a regular land line service. He is simply to lazy to look for alternatives as both you and I clearly understand.

So it would seem. I wonder if rwebb works for MTS and he's cranky about it not being a fatcat Crown Corp job anymore.

I hope the same thing happens in Winnipeg that is currently happening in Saskatoon, people dumping traditional phone service by the thousands and hooking up with the more innovative and lower cost services offered by cable companies.

I think rwebb has been drinking the NDP Kool-Aid.

[rwebb]

Oh, gimme a break, guys!

SaskBigPicture, if you'd bothered to check your own link you would have seen that Shaw Digital Phone is available for $40/month when bundled with two additional Shaw services.

And Clinton, wireless phones are not the same as basic phone service. They provide additional functionality (e.g., mobility), for much more money.

If all you want (or more to the point, if all you can afford) is basic phone service, MTS is your only option. And I suspect that even they would get out of the business if they could. Their Web site doesn't even mention it.

[SaskBigPicture]

Oh, gimme a break, guys!

SaskBigPicture, if you'd bothered to check your own link you would have seen that Shaw Digital Phone is available for $40/month when bundled with two additional Shaw services.

And Clinton, wireless phones are not the same as basic phone service. They provide additional functionality (e.g., mobility), for much more money.

If all you want (or more to the point, if all you can afford) is basic phone service, MTS is your only option. And I suspect that even they would get out of the business if they could. Their Web site doesn't even mention it.

Rwebb, the company you choose as a phone provider is your own decision. You stated that MTS is the only option for local phone service, yet you see that Shaw is an option in your area, and that they have different service options available. You contradict your own argument.

[Clinton P. Desveaux]

Oh, gimme a break, guys!

SaskBigPicture, if you'd bothered to check your own link you would have seen that Shaw Digital Phone is available for $40/month when bundled with two additional Shaw services.

And Clinton, wireless phones are not the same as basic phone service. They provide additional functionality (e.g., mobility), for much more money.

If all you want (or more to the point, if all you can afford) is basic phone service, MTS is your only option. And I suspect that even they would get out of the business if they could. Their Web site doesn't even mention it.

You can buy wireless phone cards for $10. You are still wrong.

[rwebb]

Rwebb, the company you choose as a phone provider is your own decision. You stated that MTS is the only option for local phone service, yet you see that Shaw is an option in your area, and that they have different service options available. You contradict your own argument.

I said basic (low cost, no frills) phone service, not local phone service. High-tech alternatives such as Internet and cable phone technology weren't even available in 1996, so I don't see what they have to do with the sale of MTS.

You can buy wireless phone cards for $10. You are still wrong.

A $10 wireless phone card won't get you basic phone service. Furthermore, there was never a monopoly on cellular phone service as far as I know, and certainly not in 1996; so again, I don't know what this has to do with the sale of MTS.

[Yoda]

Cell phone use in most parts of the prairies is about as effective as doing smoke signals. Once you are more than 20 miles away from the corridors.

[Charles J. White]

Individual private property rights is the only moral option which exists

[Monorprise]

I think it's important to be clear on what you mean by property. Most people will immediately think real estate and stop there.

But I think there is a much much more important class of property that needs to be addressed:

The fruits of one's labour.

Yes, it's mentioned in passing in the CPC principles, but it needs to go much farther than that.

Most people don't realize that in Canada you have no Charter right to even a single penny of what you earn. The government could perfectly legally increase taxes to 100% tomorrow, so long as they provide for your rights to security and life. The state has more rights to what you produce with your own two hands than you do.

And that's insanely wrong.

What human right could be possibly be more fundamental than ownership of what you produce by the sweat of your brow?

Taking the fruits of one's labor to give to another under the threat of force is a very old and common practice but we used to have another name for it: slavery.

It's also known as thief, exploitation, subjugation, ect...

Most of the evils of mankind can be traced to this simple concept of taking from other people without their consent.

Its not hard to understand why either as this simple act against others is by far the most tempting and rewarding of vices.