How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[Paddington]

FYI the 2 Esdras is not a part of the Biblical Canon and therefore would not have be considered scripture for most Christians.

[Blaze Pascal]

So, Paddington, are you saying that the belief in the historical factuality of the resurrection is the single, specific key to salvation?

Because if so, I am in agreement with that.

I believe that the one essential thing is to believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected on the third day.

Everything else is still valid stuff, but it is all strictly speaking, secondary. The one, single primary thing is to believe that this resurrection actually took place.

Is that your standpoint?

Because if it is, it seems to put everything on a rather technical basis. In other words, how does the belief in this historical fact affect anything? How does it affect behaviour? How does it change the world? It just seems like a technical yes-no question. Why would God put that technical question as the ultimate core of everything?

I'm asking because I basically agree with the above, but I'm sincerely wondering about that.

Westviking, at the risk of putting words into your mouth, you seem to be objecting that this technical yes-no belief doesn't seem to go beyond itself, and have an improving effect on the believer or the world.

Is the belief in this technical fact truly the core Christianity and therefore of all things? It seems like a dry technical fact to base everything on.

Like I said, I'm fine with it. I believe it. I believe in the historical factuality of the resurrection. But many people who are left-leaning Christians simply delete this historical fact. They believe in everything except the factual resurrection. This is part of the reason I can't stand to be in the same room with them.

[WestViking]

Westviking, at the risk of putting words into your mouth, you seem to be objecting that this technical yes-no belief doesn't seem to go beyond itself, and have an improving effect on the believer or the world.

Belief in the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ is fundamental to Christians. Our calendar is dated roughly from the birth of Christ. I say roughly because scholars are unsure of, or cannot agree on, the exact date of birth, not that it mater that much after two millennium.

I accept and believe that Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected and lives in Heaven. His promise is that we can follow; that death on earth is not the end of our being.

I do not accept that the record of Christ's teachings while here on earth were only a prelude to his crucifixion and resurrection. I believe that God expects us to live in accordance with His Word as expressed through His Son, Jesus.

God knows we will fail, that we cannot be entirely righteous so we need to cleanse ourselves by praying for absolution from our sins.

I do not accept the premise about good works paving the road to Heaven; nor do I accept the nonsense that good works are simply a matter of ego or pride. Living in accordance with His Word is neither the road to Heaven or prideful.

John 12: 44 - 50:
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

I believe that in the end, we will be judged on how righteously we lived provided that we have also prayed for forgiveness of our sins. Acceptance of Christ is acceptance of and belief in a stern but gracious taskmaster. We do this based on faith in God and His Word.

[Paddington]

So, Paddington, are you saying that the belief in the historical factuality of the resurrection is the single, specific key to salvation?

Because if so, I am in agreement with that.

I believe that the one essential thing is to believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected on the third day.

Everything else is still valid stuff, but it is all strictly speaking, secondary. The one, single primary thing is to believe that this resurrection actually took place.

Is that your standpoint?

Because if it is, it seems to put everything on a rather technical basis. In other words, how does the belief in this historical fact affect anything? How does it affect behaviour? How does it change the world? It just seems like a technical yes-no question. Why would God put that technical question as the ultimate core of everything?

I'm asking because I basically agree with the above, but I'm sincerely wondering about that.

Westviking, at the risk of putting words into your mouth, you seem to be objecting that this technical yes-no belief doesn't seem to go beyond itself, and have an improving effect on the believer or the world.

Is the belief in this technical fact truly the core Christianity and therefore of all things? It seems like a dry technical fact to base everything on.

Like I said, I'm fine with it. I believe it. I believe in the historical factuality of the resurrection. But many people who are left-leaning Christians simply delete this historical fact. They believe in everything except the factual resurrection. This is part of the reason I can't stand to be in the same room with them.

It's not merely Believing that it took place, but it's to actually place your faith in it as the sacrifice to pay for your sins. In the Old testiment they sacrificed animals to cover their sins. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ does more than that. It actually pays for your sins. That's why only those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation will be saved because they are the only ones covered in the blood. It's not about good verses bad, it's about those who accept the sacrifice to pay for their sins and those who don't.

[Paddington]

Westviking, at the risk of putting words into your mouth, you seem to be objecting that this technical yes-no belief doesn't seem to go beyond itself, and have an improving effect on the believer or the world.

Belief in the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ is fundamental to Christians. Our calendar is dated roughly from the birth of Christ. I say roughly because scholars are unsure of, or cannot agree on, the exact date of birth, not that it mater that much after two millennium.

I accept and believe that Jesus died for our sins, was resurrected and lives in Heaven. His promise is that we can follow; that death on earth is not the end of our being.

I do not accept that the record of Christ's teachings while here on earth were only a prelude to his crucifixion and resurrection. I believe that God expects us to live in accordance with His Word as expressed through His Son, Jesus.

God knows we will fail, that we cannot be entirely righteous so we need to cleanse ourselves by praying for absolution from our sins.

I do not accept the premise about good works paving the road to Heaven; nor do I accept the nonsense that good works are simply a matter of ego or pride. Living in accordance with His Word is neither the road to Heaven or prideful.

John 12: 44 - 50:
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

I believe that in the end, we will be judged on how righteously we lived provided that we have also prayed for forgiveness of our sins. Acceptance of Christ is acceptance of and belief in a stern but gracious taskmaster. We do this based on faith in God and His Word.

Salvation is based only on whether you place your faith in the Sacrifice that He gave on the cross to pay for your sins. The good deeds come as a result of knowing that you are already forgiven of your sins. We are never righteous because of our own deeds.

[WestViking]

Salvation is based only on whether you place your faith in the Sacrifice that He gave on the cross to pay for your sins. The good deeds come as a result of knowing that you are already forgiven of your sins. We are never righteous because of our own deeds.

I am not a member of the clergy. I only express my personal views. I mean no disrespect when I state that I disagree with you strongly. You appear to make living in accordance with God’s Word seem not just trivial but wrong.

Why would God send His Son to teach us His Word if it had no meaning and contained no lessons? Why did Jesus exhort his Disciples to scatter and take the Word to as many people as they could? Do you expect me to accept that the Sermon on the mount is meaningless; that the death of Jesus is our guide to living by His Word?

Salvation is based on faith in God and His Grace. Yes, Jesus died on the cross to absolve mankind of his sins, but only after he had taught us what sins were. Jesus came to us to save us, not to judge us. He gave us a map to follow. He died to absolve us of sins and allow us to follow his map and find salvation.

People forget that when Jesus lived, there was no bible to refer to. The Word had to be spread from person to person. There are no ecclesiastics in the Bible; no cardinals, or bishops or other church officials - just those who had heard the Word and those who had not. There were no scholars to impudently announce that portions of His Word were not part of ‘Biblical Cannons’. That is really quite amazing.

I have never been without faith. It was part of my family and part of my heritage. Our faith in God is unshakable I was taught from childhood to question everything and not accept convention until I was sure it made sense. When my forefathers came to this country they were ill-prepared to deal with the harsh and unforgiving wilderness they found themselves in. They were saved by local aboriginals who took pity and showed them how to care for themselves in a hostile environment. They learned and survived.

Shortly thereafter the settlement was blessed with two preachers who took residence at opposite ends of the community and were theological opponents. A summer was spent with menfolk travelling by foot roughly 25 miles from one preacher to the other trying to decide who was right. Crops were not seeded and winter provisions were not put up and the community almost starved again as a result.

My faith in God, His Word, and His Works cannot be shaken. I have no faith in churches and priests. I find it ironic that church officials tell me that I am a sinner in need of salvation, but behave as if they are not. Bummer!

[free_life2]

So, Paddington, are you saying that the belief in the historical factuality of the resurrection is the single, specific key to salvation?

Because if so, I am in agreement with that.

I believe that the one essential thing is to believe that Jesus died on the cross and was resurrected on the third day.

Everything else is still valid stuff, but it is all strictly speaking, secondary. The one, single primary thing is to believe that this resurrection actually took place.

Is that your standpoint?

Because if it is, it seems to put everything on a rather technical basis. In other words, how does the belief in this historical fact affect anything? How does it affect behaviour? How does it change the world? It just seems like a technical yes-no question. Why would God put that technical question as the ultimate core of everything?

I'm asking because I basically agree with the above, but I'm sincerely wondering about that.

Westviking, at the risk of putting words into your mouth, you seem to be objecting that this technical yes-no belief doesn't seem to go beyond itself, and have an improving effect on the believer or the world.

Is the belief in this technical fact truly the core Christianity and therefore of all things? It seems like a dry technical fact to base everything on.

Like I said, I'm fine with it. I believe it. I believe in the historical factuality of the resurrection. But many people who are left-leaning Christians simply delete this historical fact. They believe in everything except the factual resurrection. This is part of the reason I can't stand to be in the same room with them.

It's not merely Believing that it took place, but it's to actually place your faith in it as the sacrifice to pay for your sins. In the Old testiment they sacrificed animals to cover their sins. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ does more than that. It actually pays for your sins. That's why only those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation will be saved because they are the only ones covered in the blood. It's not about good verses bad, it's about those who accept the sacrifice to pay for their sins and those who don't.

Very accurate presentation on what is and what isn't regarding the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

[Paddington]

Salvation is based only on whether you place your faith in the Sacrifice that He gave on the cross to pay for your sins. The good deeds come as a result of knowing that you are already forgiven of your sins. We are never righteous because of our own deeds.

I am not a member of the clergy. I only express my personal views. I mean no disrespect when I state that I disagree with you strongly. You appear to make living in accordance with God’s Word seem not just trivial but wrong.

Absolutely not. Living according to God's word is the best way to live, but what point is it to keep the commandments of God if you are not saved in the first place. The first thing we need to do is find out what we need to do to be saved, then once we are saved, we can worry about how to please God.

The Philipian Jailer asked in Act 16:30 "Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Ac 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

Did they say believe and do good works? no. Did they say believe and be baptized? no. They said believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. What does that mean? To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ means to place your faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation, believing that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins.

After you understand that your salvation is NOT of works of righteousness which WE have done, it's about what CHRIST has done, THEN you can worry about living a good Christian life.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Ro 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Salvation is not of works, but that doesn't mean that you aren't supposed to live according to what Jesus says. The difference is that Christians are NOT to live for Him in order to be saved, we are to live for Him because we already ARE saved. A true believer will have a genuine desire to serve God.



Why would God send His Son to teach us His Word if it had no meaning and contained no lessons? Why did Jesus exhort his Disciples to scatter and take the Word to as many people as they could? Do you expect me to accept that the Sermon on the mount is meaningless; that the death of Jesus is our guide to living by His Word?

It's meaningless to the unsaved. To the Believer isn't certainly not meaningless.

Salvation is based on faith in God and His Grace. Yes, Jesus died on the cross to absolve mankind of his sins, but only after he had taught us what sins were. Jesus came to us to save us, not to judge us. He gave us a map to follow. He died to absolve us of sins and allow us to follow his map and find salvation.

In the Old Testiment they sacrificed animals, shedding their blood to cover their sins, did you know that? When Jesus came, He was the perfect sacrifice to, not merely cover our sins, but to wash them away.clean for all time. When you place your faith in Jesus, it's His sacrifice that saves you. THEN you are free to serve Him.

People forget that when Jesus lived, there was no bible to refer to. The Word had to be spread from person to person. There are no ecclesiastics in the Bible; no cardinals, or bishops or other church officials - just those who had heard the Word and those who had not. There were no scholars to impudently announce that portions of His Word were not part of ‘Biblical Cannons’. That is really quite amazing.

You are incorrect. They had the Old Testiment and lived by it. Jesus referred to it often via the phrase "It is written"

Mt 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Mt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. {tempt: or, try, or, put to trial, or, proof}
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Mt 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mt 21:13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Mt 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
Mt 26:31 ¶ Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
Mr 1:2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Mr 7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Mr 9:12 And he answered and told them, Elias verily cometh first, and restoreth all things; and how it is written of the Son of man, that he must suffer many things, and be set at nought.
Mr 9:13 But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.
Mr 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
Mr 14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. {offended: or, scandalized, or, shall stumble}
Lu 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)
Lu 3:4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Lu 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Lu 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Lu 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:
Lu 7:27 This is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
Lu 19:46 Saying unto them, It is written, My house is the house of prayer: but ye have made it a den of thieves.
Lu 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
Joh 6:31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Joh 12:14 And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,



I have never been without faith. It was part of my family and part of my heritage. Our faith in God is unshakable I was taught from childhood to question everything and not accept convention until I was sure it made sense. When my forefathers came to this country they were ill-prepared to deal with the harsh and unforgiving wilderness they found themselves in. They were saved by local aboriginals who took pity and showed them how to care for themselves in a hostile environment. They learned and survived.

Your foundation needs to be in the Bible, the Word of God. Is the Bible the foundation of your beliefs or is it something else?

Shortly thereafter the settlement was blessed with two preachers who took residence at opposite ends of the community and were theological opponents. A summer was spent with menfolk travelling by foot roughly 25 miles from one preacher to the other trying to decide who was right. Crops were not seeded and winter provisions were not put up and the community almost starved again as a result.

My faith in God, His Word, and His Works cannot be shaken. I have no faith in churches and priests. I find it ironic that church officials tell me that I am a sinner in need of salvation, but behave as if they are not. Bummer!

I am not pointing my finger at you, nor am I judging your salvation. All I am saying is that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone, not by works. The works come after salvation. Yes we are to follow the word, but not so that we can be saved. We follow it because we already ARE saved by His grace through faith in His blood sacrifice on the cross. We can never be good enough to get to heaven. It's by His righeousness, not ours. God gets the glory and credit for our salvation, not us.

My response is in bold above.

[WestViking]

It's not merely Believing that it took place, but it's to actually place your faith in it as the sacrifice to pay for your sins. In the Old testiment they sacrificed animals to cover their sins. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ does more than that. It actually pays for your sins. That's why only those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation will be saved because they are the only ones covered in the blood. It's not about good verses bad, it's about those who accept the sacrifice to pay for their sins and those who don't.

Very accurate presentation on what is and what isn't regarding the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

One has to believe that Jesus is God's Son, that he died to absolve us of our sins, was resurrected on the third day and rose to Heaven in order to have Christian faith. That is the foundation of Christianity. If we receive the Word of God, we follow His lessons. We will, each of us, be judged by Jesus on His return to earth.

I have no more to say.

[Paddington]

It's not merely Believing that it took place, but it's to actually place your faith in it as the sacrifice to pay for your sins. In the Old testiment they sacrificed animals to cover their sins. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ does more than that. It actually pays for your sins. That's why only those who place their faith in Jesus Christ for Salvation will be saved because they are the only ones covered in the blood. It's not about good verses bad, it's about those who accept the sacrifice to pay for their sins and those who don't.

Very accurate presentation on what is and what isn't regarding the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.

One has to believe that Jesus is God's Son, that he died to absolve us of our sins, was resurrected on the third day and rose to Heaven in order to have Christian faith. That is the foundation of Christianity. If we receive the Word of God, we follow His lessons. We will, each of us, be judged by Jesus on His return to earth.

I have no more to say.

The good deeds are because of salvation, not the cause. Secondly, the believers aren't judged on their sins, they are judged on their works for Christ and rewarded accordingly. The non-believers are judged according to their works in the Great White Throne Judgement. There is also a Judgement of the nations that will take place. They will be judged by their dealings especially their dealings with Israel.

[Edward Kennedy]

True BUT there are sins of omission as well as sins of commission and sins of omission today far outnumber sins of commission especially in the so called "church".

I consider it a sin of omission to not support the battle for freedom and justice anywhere it is enjoined, especially here where cowardly criminal lieberals are attacking it.

[WestViking]

The good deeds are because of salvation, not the cause.

"Good deeds" are for boy scouts. Salvation as understood by Christians is not needed to perform a 'good deed'; people who have never heard the word are prefectly capable of acts of compassion and kindness.

Secondly, the believers aren't judged on their sins, they are judged on their works for Christ and rewarded accordingly.

I will never accept the premise that someone can pray for salvation and thereafter can commit any sin with impunity. "Works for Christ" means pretty much whatever you want it to mean. I have never heard of any 'works for Christ' other then spreading His Word. It is written in 2 James :9

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

[Edward Kennedy]

"He who knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin"

Thus you can ignore doing what is good in action and actually sin.

[Paddington]

True BUT there are sins of omission as well as sins of commission and sins of omission today far outnumber sins of commission especially in the so called "church".

I consider it a sin of omission to not support the battle for freedom and justice anywhere it is enjoined, especially here where cowardly criminal lieberals are attacking it.

I know what a sin of omission is. While we can't become a part of every battle, to stand by and do nothing when it's clear that you can act, I would consider a sin as well.

I know that I keep drilling this, but it's important: So you understand that Salvation isn't the result of works and that the good deeds are the RESULT of Salvation, Never, NEVER the cause, right?

[Paddington]

The good deeds are because of salvation, not the cause.

"Good deeds" are for boy scouts. Salvation as understood by Christians is not needed to perform a 'good deed'; people who have never heard the word are prefectly capable of acts of compassion and kindness.

Secondly, the believers aren't judged on their sins, they are judged on their works for Christ and rewarded accordingly.

I will never accept the premise that someone can pray for salvation and thereafter can commit any sin with impunity. "Works for Christ" means pretty much whatever you want it to mean. I have never heard of any 'works for Christ' other then spreading His Word. It is written in 2 James :9

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

All of our works are supposed to be done as unto the Lord.

1Co 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
(KJV)

Speaking to believers Paul Writes:

1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. {it shall be: Gr. it is} If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Notice that the Christian is not judged by his sins, but rather his works for Christ and is rewarded or not rewarded for them, but He HIMSELF shall be saved whether or not he has rewards.