How To Get To Heaven When You Die

[WestViking]

I do not believe that a person can wallow in sin throughout his life and still enjoy salvation through occasional prayer.

Is there anyone who hasn't wallowed in sin?

And is there any sin that Jesus hasn't paid the price for? Did God not punish Jesus enough? Did He hold back some of His wrath? This self righteous religious crap that some who claim to be Christians pull is an insult to the what Jesus did. It is finished, He finished and works do not earn salvation, they deny Christian and His gift of salvation.

Part of the message in the Word is to stop sinning, at least to the point that we poor mortals can resist temptation. Jesus died for our sins but not to give us license to sin with impunity. No one has put forth the premise that striving to live a moral life will grant you salvation, yet you argue as if someone had.

[free_life2]

I do not believe that a person can wallow in sin throughout his life and still enjoy salvation through occasional prayer.

Is there anyone who hasn't wallowed in sin?

And is there any sin that Jesus hasn't paid the price for? Did God not punish Jesus enough? Did He hold back some of His wrath?

This self righteous religious crap that some who claim to be Christians pull is an insult to the what Jesus did. It is finished, He finished and works do not earn salvation, they deny Christian and His gift of salvation.

You refer of course to the imposition of WORKS that some maintian are necessary to attain unto salvation.

The apostte Paul in addressing such tripe infers that these people have made the sacrifice and plan of salvation of non effect, thereby in essence damning themselves in process. It is clearly writtten that such conduct is unacceptable, because who would dare try to in their pride usurp and one up Jesus Christ by their futile and insane attempts to say that Jesus was deficient? Blasphemy. Fools.

The religious want to earn their way into heaven, it is pride. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags. Without faith to receive the free gift of God's grace through the full payment of Jesus Christ they never take that gift wanting instead to prove themselves worthy of God's grace. The relationship with God that comes only from receiving His gift by faith results in works out of love not duty that reflects a heart that believes it can earn salvation. Oh they may say they are not trying to earn salvation but their heart and words betray them.

[Edward Kennedy]

You speak truth FL2

[Muddy]

Well I have to admit I am a little tardy on getting back to reguler Sunday service but my Grandson has led me . Now I am looking in the bible for loop holes. But just in case I think I will take a bible in one hand and a GPS thingamabob in the other when it looks like I am packing it in.

[free_life2]

I do not believe that a person can wallow in sin throughout his life and still enjoy salvation through occasional prayer.

Is there anyone who hasn't wallowed in sin?

And is there any sin that Jesus hasn't paid the price for? Did God not punish Jesus enough? Did He hold back some of His wrath? This self righteous religious crap that some who claim to be Christians pull is an insult to the what Jesus did. It is finished, He finished and works do not earn salvation, they deny Christian and His gift of salvation.

Part of the message in the Word is to stop sinning, at least to the point that we poor mortals can resist temptation. Jesus died for our sins but not to give us license to sin with impunity. No one has put forth the premise that striving to live a moral life will grant you salvation, yet you argue as if someone had.

I am not your judge, your salvation is between you and God but your words are puzzling, you sure seem to argue for both.

WestViking wrote:
No one is 100% sure of where they go after death. Some may claim they are, but have no guarantee except in their minds.
Faith is 100% sure Christ is enough for their salvation, or it is not faith, it would be hope or works needed to earn salvation.

I do not believe that a person can wallow in sin throughout his life and still enjoy salvation through occasional prayer. Either Jesus will return to judge us on our merits or not. I don't believe that there is an escape clause, and although many churchmen disagree, they have a vested interest.

If that is not a works based salvation statement, what is?

Ignore the ethical framework set out in the Word at your peril if you wish. That is your choice in accordance with the free will God blessed us with.

What peril, no salvation for those who don't measure up? That is not, by grace you have been saved through faith.

Just remember that free will does not come to us packed with a parachute.

Yes it does, those who have Christ by faith land just fine when they face God, otherwise God's free gift of salvation is not enough.

[WestViking]

I do not believe that a person can wallow in sin throughout his life and still enjoy salvation through occasional prayer.

Is there anyone who hasn't wallowed in sin?

And is there any sin that Jesus hasn't paid the price for? Did God not punish Jesus enough? Did He hold back some of His wrath? This self righteous religious crap that some who claim to be Christians pull is an insult to the what Jesus did. It is finished, He finished and works do not earn salvation, they deny Christian and His gift of salvation.

Part of the message in the Word is to stop sinning, at least to the point that we poor mortals can resist temptation. Jesus died for our sins but not to give us license to sin with impunity. No one has put forth the premise that striving to live a moral life will grant you salvation, yet you argue as if someone had.

I am not your judge, your salvation is between you and God but your words are puzzling, you sure seem to argue for both.

WestViking wrote:
No one is 100% sure of where they go after death. Some may claim they are, but have no guarantee except in their minds.
Faith is 100% sure Christ is enough for their salvation, or it is not faith, it would be hope or works needed to earn salvation. That is your view, your interpretation and has no basis other than that.

I do not believe that a person can wallow in sin throughout his life and still enjoy salvation through occasional prayer. Either Jesus will return to judge us on our merits or not. I don't believe that there is an escape clause, and although many churchmen disagree, they have a vested interest. If that is not a works based salvation statement, what is? You seem blind to any interpretation of the Word other than your own.

Ignore the ethical framework set out in the Word at your peril if you wish. That is your choice in accordance with the free will God blessed us with. What peril, no salvation for those who don't measure up? That is not, by grace you have been saved through faith. No, the person who asks for salvation in Jesus' Name but fails to follow the Word as written has a strange view of faith and God’s Word.

Just remember that free will does not come to us packed with a parachute.

Yes it does, those who have Christ by faith land just fine when they face God, otherwise God's free gift of salvation is not enough.

God's gift of salvation is not a parachute. No matter how hard we strive to be moral and follow teachings of the Word, we are human, fallible and will always require salvation from our failings. I simply pointed out that there is much more to the Word than this simple prayer:

"Dear Lord Jesus, I believe that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I ask you to come into my heart and forgive me for my sins, save me, take me to be with You when I die. I now receive You as my Lord and Savior. Thank You for saving me. In Jesus holy name, Amen."

I don't believe that the New Testament was written so we can focus on the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ as all we need to know to attain salvation and the Kingdom. I have never said and do not believe that a person can attain salvation through works alone or that we can ever be perfectly moral; that is your conclusion and position, not mine.

[free_life2]

I do not believe that a person can wallow in sin throughout his life and still enjoy salvation through occasional prayer.

Is there anyone who hasn't wallowed in sin?

And is there any sin that Jesus hasn't paid the price for? Did God not punish Jesus enough? Did He hold back some of His wrath? This self righteous religious crap that some who claim to be Christians pull is an insult to the what Jesus did. It is finished, He finished and works do not earn salvation, they deny Christian and His gift of salvation.

Part of the message in the Word is to stop sinning, at least to the point that we poor mortals can resist temptation. Jesus died for our sins but not to give us license to sin with impunity. No one has put forth the premise that striving to live a moral life will grant you salvation, yet you argue as if someone had.

I am not your judge, your salvation is between you and God but your words are puzzling, you sure seem to argue for both.

WestViking wrote:
No one is 100% sure of where they go after death. Some may claim they are, but have no guarantee except in their minds.
Faith is 100% sure Christ is enough for their salvation, or it is not faith, it would be hope or works needed to earn salvation. That is your view, your interpretation and has no basis other than that.

My view is meaningless, the bible is irrefutable.

Eph 2:4-9 God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

If we cannot be 100% sure of this promise of salvation by God's grace through our faith in this promise, then God is a liar.

I do not believe that a person can wallow in sin throughout his life and still enjoy salvation through occasional prayer. Either Jesus will return to judge us on our merits or not. I don't believe that there is an escape clause, and although many churchmen disagree, they have a vested interest. If that is not a works based salvation statement, what is? You seem blind to any interpretation of the Word other than your own.

The Word of God is clear on this, that would make you blind to what God wrote and promised, wouldn't it?

Ignore the ethical framework set out in the Word at your peril if you wish. That is your choice in accordance with the free will God blessed us with. What peril, no salvation for those who don't measure up? That is not, by grace you have been saved through faith. No, the person who asks for salvation in Jesus' Name but fails to follow the Word as written has a strange view of faith and God’s Word.

Still a works based salvation statement. How about answering the question instead of the usual WV bunny trail.

Just remember that free will does not come to us packed with a parachute.

Yes it does, those who have Christ by faith land just fine when they face God, otherwise God's free gift of salvation is not enough.

God's gift of salvation is not a parachute. No matter how hard we strive to be moral and follow teachings of the Word, we are human, fallible and will always require salvation from our failings. I simply pointed out that there is much more to the Word than this simple prayer:

"Dear Lord Jesus, I believe that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I ask you to come into my heart and forgive me for my sins, save me, take me to be with You when I die. I now receive You as my Lord and Savior. Thank You for saving me. In Jesus holy name, Amen."

I don't believe that the New Testament was written so we can focus on the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ as all we need to know to attain salvation and the Kingdom. I have never said and do not believe that a person can attain salvation through works alone or that we can ever be perfectly moral; that is your conclusion and position, not mine.

No prayer saves anyone, I don't read Paddington saying it does.... faith is the needed ingredient. What works did the thief on the cross have? None, his faith in Christ saved him. Read Romans chapters 3 & 4.

So you don't believe the New Testament was written so we can focus on the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ as all we need to know to attain salvation and the Kingdom. What then should we be focusing on if not Jesus Christ and His crucifixion and resurrection?

1 Cor 1: 23-24 we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

1 Cor 2: 2
For I (Paul) decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.

1 Cor 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

What else could I conclude by your own words? You are clearly saying more than faith is needed for one to be saved, so you add works to the equation as have men since the fall. You just don't want to call it works. Name it then WV, how are we saved?

[WestViking]

What else could I conclude by your own words? You are clearly saying more than faith is needed for one to be saved, so you add works to the equation as have men since the fall. You just don't want to call it works. Name it then WV, how are we saved? [/color]

Part of Christian belief and faith is living in accordance with the Word as best as we can. Claiming faith without doing our best to practise the ethics integral to Christian teachings is hollow and unsubstantial. You do not agree so the debate is at an end. I have no need to change your mind or your religious views. Go in peace.

[free_life2]

What else could I conclude by your own words? You are clearly saying more than faith is needed for one to be saved, so you add works to the equation as have men since the fall. You just don't want to call it works. Name it then WV, how are we saved? [/color]

Part of Christian belief and faith is living in accordance with the Word as best as we can. Claiming faith without doing our best to practise the ethics integral to Christian teachings is hollow and unsubstantial. You do not agree so the debate is at an end. I have no need to change your mind or your religious views. Go in peace.

Lets cut to the chase WV.

What must someone do to be saved?

[Winston Smith]

What else could I conclude by your own words? You are clearly saying more than faith is needed for one to be saved, so you add works to the equation as have men since the fall. You just don't want to call it works. Name it then WV, how are we saved? [/color]

Part of Christian belief and faith is living in accordance with the Word as best as we can. Claiming faith without doing our best to practise the ethics integral to Christian teachings is hollow and unsubstantial. You do not agree so the debate is at an end. I have no need to change your mind or your religious views. Go in peace.

Lets cut to the chase WV.

What must someone do to be saved?

Faith is a works. It is also a gift, but it is something you must receive, accept and use. Having faith implies action.

This whole faith vs work thing is silly intended to keep all us Christians arguing.

Not that i was asked mind you
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Interesting to VW's point, Jesus backup up the spirit of his argument, which I think you are misunderstanding FL2.

John-
9And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

[Blaze Pascal]

This is a fascinating conversation. I've obviously come to the right place.

They say that if you pray Paddington's prayer and really mean it, then you will in fact go on to improve your moral life.

In other words, both sides are true. Yes, salvation is by faith alone. But yes, WV, true faith should inspire moral reform.

Here is a version of the paradox: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God which worketh in you" -- Philippians 2:12-13.

In other words, it's a mystery.

The Bible has the most wisdom of any book I have yet to encounter, and I usually go with wisdom, when given a choice.

[Paddington]

This is a fascinating conversation. I've obviously come to the right place.

They say that if you pray Paddington's prayer and really mean it, then you will in fact go on to improve your moral life.

In other words, both sides are true. Yes, salvation is by faith alone. But yes, WV, true faith should inspire moral reform.

Here is a version of the paradox: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God which worketh in you" -- Philippians 2:12-13.

In other words, it's a mystery.

The Bible has the most wisdom of any book I have yet to encounter, and I usually go with wisdom, when given a choice.

Hi Blaze, It's not really about saying a set prayer, it's about placing your faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Yes, it's by faith, but saving faith means to place your faith in Christ, not just believe that He exists. The good moral life comes as a result of being Born Again into the family of God. In other words, God gives you a new Spirit with a new nature that desires to please God. We still sin because our physical body on the other hand is still sinful, therefore there is a constant war between the flesh and the Spirit. Good discussion here. Wow.

[WestViking]

Lets cut to the chase WV. What must someone do to be saved?

I have no answer for you. I am not fool enough to pretend that I know for certain how to be "saved".

I have accepted God in my life and heart. I pray for forgiveness of my sins. I try my best to follow the Word, its ethics and teachings. I believe in honesty, morality and truth. Will that get me to Heaven? I don't know and it doesn't matter. If I do not get to heaven, it will not be the fault of God or Jesus, but I will leave this world a little better than if I had not lived.

Ecclesiasticus Chapter 28

1 He that revengeth shall find vengeance from the Lord, and he will surely keep his sins in remembrance.
2 Forgive thy neighbour the hurt that he hath done unto thee, so shall thy sins also be forgiven when thou prayest.
3 One man beareth hatred against another, and doth he seek pardon from the Lord?
4 He sheweth no mercy to a man, which is like himself: and doth he ask forgiveness of his own sins?
5 If he that is but flesh nourish hatred, who will intreat for pardon of his sins?
6 Remember thy end, and let enmity cease; remember corruption and death, and abide in the commandments.
7 Remember the commandments, and bear no malice to thy neighbour: remember the covenant of the Highest, and wink at ignorance.
8 Abstain from strife, and thou shalt diminish thy sins: for a furious man will kindle strife,
9 A sinful man disquieteth friends, and maketh debate among them that be at peace.
10 As the matter of the fire is, so it burneth: and as a man's strength is, so is his wrath; and according to his riches his anger riseth; and the stronger they are which contend, the more they will be inflamed.
11 An hasty contention kindleth a fire: and an hasty fighting sheddeth blood.
12 If thou blow the spark, it shall burn: if thou spit upon it, it shall be quenched: and both these come out of thy mouth.
13 Curse the whisperer and doubletongued: for such have destroyed many that were at peace.
14 A backbiting tongue hath disquieted many, and driven them from nation to nation: strong cities hath it pulled down, and overthrown the houses of great men.
15 A backbiting tongue hath cast out virtuous women, and deprived them of their labours.
16 Whoso hearkeneth unto it shall never find rest, and never dwell quietly.
17 The stroke of the whip maketh marks in the flesh: but the stroke of the tongue breaketh the bones.
18 Many have fallen by the edge of the sword: but not so many as have fallen by the tongue.
19 Well is he that is defended through the venom thereof; who hath not drawn the yoke thereof, nor hath been bound in her bands.
20 For the yoke thereof is a yoke of iron, and the bands thereof are bands of brass.
21 The death thereof is an evil death, the grave were better than it.
22 It shall not have rule over them that fear God, neither shall they be burned with the flame thereof.
23 Such as forsake the Lord shall fall into it; and it shall burn in them, and not be quenched; it shall be sent upon them as a lion, and devour them as a leopard.
24 Look that thou hedge thy possession about with thorns, and bind up thy silver and gold,
25 And weigh thy words in a balance, and make a door and bar for thy mouth.
26 Beware thou slide not by it, lest thou fall before him that lieth in wait.

[Paddington]

I have no answer for you. I am not fool enough to pretend that I know for certain how to be "saved

I have accepted God in my life and heart. I pray for forgiveness of my sins. I try my best to follow the Word, its ethics and teachings. I believe in honesty, morality and truth. Will that get me to Heaven? I don't know and it doesn't matter. If I do not get to heaven, it will not be the fault of God or Jesus, but I will leave this world a little better than if I had not lived.".

The Question is have you placed your faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and trust that His blood sacrifice paid for your sins? Salvation is by faith in Christ alone. His sacrifice on the cross is sufficient for you, but you must place your faith in Him and His sacrifice. Do you confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior of your life and place your trust in Him?

Being a good person and obeying the word comes AFTER salvation, it doesn't result in salvation, therefore, worry about following the word and being a good moral person after you Confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Than, once you know that you are already a child of God and Saved, seek to please Him in all that you do, NOT for salvation, but because you are ALREADY saved by His grace (unearned favor). Remember that salvation is a free gift, meaning that it's not something that we can earn.

[WestViking]

I have no answer for you. I am not fool enough to pretend that I know for certain how to be "saved

I have accepted God in my life and heart. I pray for forgiveness of my sins. I try my best to follow the Word, its ethics and teachings. I believe in honesty, morality and truth. Will that get me to Heaven? I don't know and it doesn't matter. If I do not get to heaven, it will not be the fault of God or Jesus, but I will leave this world a little better than if I had not lived.".

The Question is have you placed your faith in Jesus Christ, believing that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and trust that His blood sacrifice paid for your sins? Salvation is by faith in Christ alone. His sacrifice on the cross is sufficient for you, but you must place your faith in Him and His sacrifice. Do you confess Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior of your life and place your trust in Him?

Being a good person and obeying the word comes AFTER salvation, it doesn't result in salvation, therefore, worry about following the word and being a good moral person after you Confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Than, once you know that you are already a child of God and Saved, seek to please Him in all that you do, NOT for salvation, but because you are ALREADY saved by His grace (unearned favor). Remember that salvation is a free gift, meaning that it's not something that we can earn.

My words are very clear. "I have accepted God in my life and heart." Jesus said: "I am the Way" and I believe and trust in that. I have had incidents where I put myself in God's hands praying only for guidance and I have survived and served in accordance with His will.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

It is not for man or church to tell me what I "must" do and believe in order to attain salvation. Neither can man or church guarantee me a place in Heaven. There is but one being who can do so.

2 Esdras 7:19 And he said unto me. There is no judge above God, and none that hath understanding above the Highest.
Psalms 96:13 Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.