With 'universal' health care, we all wait - Tristan Emmanuel

[doggedlyright]

What deaths??? That is not true. If you are dying you get care.

Have you ever read the papers and the reports of people dying in corridors of the hospitals?

Heck they told mm that my father in law was not going to get dialysis because he was too old. He was 68 at the time. Thank heavens the ONT PC's owed me big time and I called in that debt. One call from the Minister of Health and he was getting dialysis. Any other person would hjave had to go home and die a painful death.

My father in law paid millions in taxes (employer, personal and corporate) over the years he owned his business.

If we as Canadians cannot own up to the problems within our system, then how can one ever expect to fix them.

[rsf]

Have you ever read the papers and the reports of people dying in corridors of the hospitals?

No, post a link.

I have read about people waiting on beds in the hallways, i was one them once. Not for very long though, several hours. But the place was very busy.

I am outa here. Post the link with all these people dying in the hallways and I will read it in the morning.

[grobe]

http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/170/11/1688

[alexem]

A friend of mine has allowed me to post my response to those of you debating my recent WorldNetDaily piece today.

Thanks Alexem!!!

To those Canadian cynics on Free Dominion....

Look. When I write, I write for two purposes. One, to be intentionally provocative -- some hyperbole -- to drive home a point. There is a place for hard hitting rhetoric. And when you are only allowed about 800 words some times you need to use hyperbole to get people interested. At least get a reaction. But why should I have to tell anyone about the business of writing a column? It’s an opinion piece from a Canadian who is exercising his right to free speech.

So that bit about being treasonous from Bob Weir is a joke. That guy needs head examined -- oh wait -- he's a typical Canadian. Sorry Bob. I forgot Canadians aren’t allowed to buck the status in a socialist system. Maybe we should hold a rally for BOB WEIR – free him from the tyranny of dissenting opinion. .

Now for those of you with an intellect, and I know you’re there, I'm sure you realize that the main aim of my piece was to talk about the problems with Canada’s socialized healthcare.

1) It is absolutely outrageous that our "universal" system, which is suppose to be free and accessible, is in fact not universally free and accessible. I'm absolutely stunned that so many of you don't get the irony here – LIKE BOB.

So what if some of you had good experience! The fact is, many Canadians don't have a good experience and it is supposed to be UNIVERSALLY ACCESSIBLE system. UNIVERSAL means that everybody should have a reasonable level of medical assistance and not the horror stories we hear every day. DON'T YOU GET IT?????BOB????

UNIVERSAL is everybody, or it’s not universal and therefore not “accessible”…and therefore considering that we pay a lot into the system we’ve got a problem.

2) Most importantly, in most regions of Canada it is still illegal, or at least deeply frowned upon, because of socialist pieties, to get private care because its "unfair" and "this is only going to hurt the poor". In a country that is as advanced and wealthy as ours that’s not only a joke – that is immoral!!!! BOB!!!

And by your definition of treason, it should also be TREASONOUS!!!! BOB!!!

Now, I realize the Supreme Court has thrown a wrench into the fix. But it still uncharted water and this Conservative government has done nothing to clarify the issue -- something about being committed to our socialist system – and they call themselves conservative.

Yes I know there are exceptions to the rule, BOB.

Some of you have been able to access private services. But it hardly worth talking up our system because some of you have had good experiences. Please. Even I’ve had good experiences in the system. But if every argument is going to be reduced to some anecdotal analysis then why bother defending and advancing principles???? BOB???

Like what principle governs you ridiculous assertion that disagreeing with Canada’s healthcare system constitutes treason??? Hum??? Or is that just your experience talking?

Our system is predicated on this absurd notion that we are more "compassionate" then the Americans, because we don't turn people away. And some of you back that up by talking up your good experiences. So what! So does that mean those other Canadians with very bad experiences don’t count in this debate, is that it, BOB? Or are they treasonous too????

The fact that those Canadians had to got to great lengths to get care is outrageous and every “compassionate” Canadian should be outraged as well, especially given the level of taxation we under go. Or would that be treasonous BOB???

So spare us your cynicism and your “superiority complex” about how great the Canadian medical experience is, please.

Learn to be honest, not with me…if you don’t like me…what do I care. But be honest about the problems that plague our healthcare system.

Which gets to the principle of my argument: my underlying assertion is that our system is rooted in envy, and envy is no basis for building a healthcare system. And anyone who is going to argue to the contrary has checked out of reality--BOB!!!!

And it is envy because you don’t solve the problem by robbing others so that everyone can have equal insurance. When government redistributes money to pay for someone else’s "socialized healthcare" its theft.

And it is immoral for those Dems to down play the major problems in our country’s system only to score political points with the "poor", especially when any rational person knows that the 260 million that are paying right now will be sacrificed for politics.

So that's my defense. If you don't like what I write, fine with me. After all I’m a traitor, right BOB???

And I guess that must make you the King of Canada, eh BOB.

Tristan Emmanuel[url][/url]

[Connie Fournier]

Well said, Tristan.

I've noticed that very often Canadians (even the ones who call themselves 'conservative') seem to have an anti-American attitude, and their whole national identity is tied up in our socialized healthcare. It doesn't make me very proud to be a Canadian.

You touched a nerve that needed to be touched.

[alexem]

The only other absurdity in his argument was about how Canadians can have private health care by going to the States. What a foolish thing to say.

Like, what? It is wrong to want to have a Canadian doctor work on us in Canada and pay him directly so we can avoid waiting?

Why doesn't he apply his socialism consistently -- his job for example or maybe his buisness, if he has one.

I know; from here on in. Unless its a government controled biz or job, all private sector work and biz can only happen over the border.

Imagine that, having to go over the border to work in the private sector. Now wouldn't that be grand.

Ya, that's the Canadian way!!! Right BOB???

[Connie Fournier]

The only other absurdity in his argument was about how Canadians can have private health care by going to the States. What a foolish thing to say.

Like, what? It is wrong to want to have a Canadian doctor work on us in Canada and pay him directly so we can avoid waiting?

Why doesn't he apply his socialism consistently -- his job for example or maybe his buisness, if he has one.

I know; from here on in. Unless its a government controled biz or job, all private sector work and biz can only happen over the border.

Imagine that, having to go over the border to work in the private sector. Now wouldn't that be grand.

Ya, that's the Canadian way!!! Right BOB???

Mark and I deal with this every day and it is incredibly frustrating. Sometimes we just look at each other and say, "Is there any hope for Canadians?".

It is an ongoing struggle to educate regular Canadians about concepts of liberty and democracy, but FDers are working hard to do that. I feel like we are making headway, but it is a monumental task.

[alexem]

That's the spirit Connie.

I'm signing off from alexem's post.

Tristan

[Harry]

After having to wait 10 weeks to see a specialist and he would only discuss one thing although there were two things I wanted taken care of, I decided private care is for me.

Five years ago I had a hernia operation and was totally disgusted with the hospital. Found out later that the hospital had not properly sterilized their equipment for years.

I am in the process of getting my own insurance and setting up an account with a private clinic in Vancouver. Enough is enough.

Why are you waiting, if you have the money drive 50 miles south tonight!

Why would I go 50 miles south when I can have it done right here, in a private clinic in Vancouver.

I was just telling you why I would do it. The Lion's Gate Hospital had to investigate why they had so many instances of staff infection. They found out. I don't think I would put myself in their care again.

If I can well afford to go to private health care, that is my business. I don't need the government or anyone else telling me what I can and cannot do.

[WestViking]

I heard a radio news item today. The head of the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority was trying to explain the rather handsome salaries of the WHRA top bureaucrats. The best he could come up with was that the WHRA had to compete with other jurisdictions. Fancy that.

For starters, there are seven (7) regional health authorities in Manitoba and God only knows how many spread across this great land. Since no province can claim a satisfactorily competent health care system, just what are we competing for? The best pay and benefit package for gross ineptitude?

Politicians do not want private health care insurance or private health care delivery because it would seriously cut into the tax money they control. If there is a demand for MRIs, for example, a private clinic will invest in a machine and find the staff to run it 7/24. Our governments buy machines that sit idle from eight to sixteen hours a day.

During every election, incumbent politicians announce $$ millions in health care investments. When the votes are in, they revert to the status quo. There is no ongoing effort to improve our health care system. None.

[muncher]

There was a long thread on that clinic not that long ago.

Plus, it was in all the papers and talked on all the radio talk shows, both liberal and liberal lite hosts.

Muncher, you must learn to not call people liars when you have no idea who you are talking to.

I believe the clinic was either in Cornwall or Kingston. FD does have a search engine and it is powered by google. Get typing.

There is NO CLINIC that refuses to take english speaking patients.

I did not call you a liar.....I just want to know who and where they REFUSE TO TAKE ENGLISH PATIENTS. There may be a french clinic....(Ottawa likeley) but I'm sure the will not refuse to take you even if you don't speak French.

[muncher]

After having to wait 10 weeks to see a specialist and he would only discuss one thing although there were two things I wanted taken care of, I decided private care is for me.

Five years ago I had a hernia operation and was totally disgusted with the hospital. Found out later that the hospital had not properly sterilized their equipment for years.

I am in the process of getting my own insurance and setting up an account with a private clinic in Vancouver. Enough is enough.

Why are you waiting, if you have the money drive 50 miles south tonight!

Why would I go 50 miles south when I can have it done right here, in a private clinic in Vancouver.

I was just telling you why I would do it. The Lion's Gate Hospital had to investigate why they had so many instances of staff infection. They found out. I don't think I would put myself in their care again.

If I can well afford to go to private health care, that is my business. I don't need the government or anyone else telling me what I can and cannot do.

If your going south to avoid infections than look at this link.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dhqp/hai.html

Estimates of Healthcare-Associated Infections
CDC strives to understand how healthcare-associated infections happen and to develop appropriate interventions. A new report from CDC updates previous estimates of healthcare-associated infections. In American hospitals alone, healthcare-associated infections account for an estimated 1.7 million infections and 99,000 associated deaths each year. Of these infections:

32 percent of all healthcare-associated infection are urinary tract infections
22 percent are surgical site infections
15 percent are pneumonia (lung infections)
14 percent are bloodstream infections

No government tells you that you cannot go south for health care. But If you (god forbid) get cancer or another desease your bank account will dissapear rather quickly unless your a multi millionare.

[doggedlyright]

Muncher claims:

There is NO CLINIC that refuses to take english speaking patients.

I did not call you a liar.....I just want to know who and where they REFUSE TO TAKE ENGLISH PATIENTS. There may be a french clinic....(Ottawa likeley) but I'm sure the will not refuse to take you even if you don't speak French.

Here is a quote from the Ottawa Citizen

Never mind the fiscal imbalance where, the theory goes, all the money is on one side. Now we've got a linguistic imbalance. Where, as we now know thanks to the Affair of the French-Only Health Clinic, all the fairness and common sense are on one side only. Guess which one.

I'm pretty sure Shirley Ravary did not mean to create a big fuss when she showed up at the Centre de sante communautaire de l'Estrie in Cornwall to see her family physician about a stubborn cold. Her doctor had recently started working some of the time at the Centre de sante, and Ms. Ravary figured she could ask to see him even though she did not have an appointment. She was summarily turned away, not because the doctor could not see her or because the clinic does not take walk-in patients, but because Ms. Ravary is not a francophone.

Nobody asked her whether she needed emergency care or whether she would like to, I don't know, use their phone to schedule an appointment with her doctor at his other clinic. All the staff at the Centre de sante cared about was that Ms. Ravary clear the premises of her annoying anglo presence.

Of course she's mad. And so is her francophone husband. But apparently, there's nothing wrong with turning away a non-francophone patient at this Ontario health clinic because, Ontario Health Minister George Smitherman explained, her case wasn't urgent. (Yes, Mr. Smitherman is that good. He can tell from a distance. I am suitably impressed.)

you can read it on this <a href=http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Ep8nC7y9bN8J:www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D665038%26sid%3Da084bfbdb78bfdfa60716e4e09b1b90e+%22Medical+clinic%22+%22french+only%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=ca>THREAD</a>

[muncher]

Muncher claims:

There is NO CLINIC that refuses to take english speaking patients.

I did not call you a liar.....I just want to know who and where they REFUSE TO TAKE ENGLISH PATIENTS. There may be a french clinic....(Ottawa likeley) but I'm sure the will not refuse to take you even if you don't speak French.

Here is a quote from the Ottawa Citizen

Never mind the fiscal imbalance where, the theory goes, all the money is on one side. Now we've got a linguistic imbalance. Where, as we now know thanks to the Affair of the French-Only Health Clinic, all the fairness and common sense are on one side only. Guess which one.

I'm pretty sure Shirley Ravary did not mean to create a big fuss when she showed up at the Centre de sante communautaire de l'Estrie in Cornwall to see her family physician about a stubborn cold. Her doctor had recently started working some of the time at the Centre de sante, and Ms. Ravary figured she could ask to see him even though she did not have an appointment. She was summarily turned away, not because the doctor could not see her or because the clinic does not take walk-in patients, but because Ms. Ravary is not a francophone.

Nobody asked her whether she needed emergency care or whether she would like to, I don't know, use their phone to schedule an appointment with her doctor at his other clinic. All the staff at the Centre de sante cared about was that Ms. Ravary clear the premises of her annoying anglo presence.

Of course she's mad. And so is her francophone husband. But apparently, there's nothing wrong with turning away a non-francophone patient at this Ontario health clinic because, Ontario Health Minister George Smitherman explained, her case wasn't urgent. (Yes, Mr. Smitherman is that good. He can tell from a distance. I am suitably impressed.)

you can read it on this <a href=http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:Ep8nC7y9bN8J:www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php%3Fp%3D665038%26sid%3Da084bfbdb78bfdfa60716e4e09b1b90e+%22Medical+clinic%22+%22french+only%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=ca>THREAD</a>

Thank you for posting that link.......I never thought that in Ontario anything like this could happen. I would think that the media would pick up on this.

[Kate Shaw]

Yes I am suggesting it.

You complain that you have no choice and you cant buy your way to the front of the line ... when you can!
You have a choice, you can get immediate healthcare if you have the cash .. I thought that is what you wanted.

I know I would go over for an MRI if I thought it would be better.

I believe that rsf is expressing the hidden truth of a Public Health Care System: that some people don't mind if their mother dies on a waiting list, as long as a rich person can't "buy his mother's way to the front of the line" and dies five minutes before his own mother.

There's a reason that envy is one of the Seven Deadly Sins.