Partial birth abortion ban a step closer to CPC policy

[khori_wan_kenobi]

In fact, most people are surprised when they learn that in Canada abortion is available until the days before giving birth...They always reply:"uh? I thought it was illegal after 3 months, who in their right mind would kill their baby at 7 months, etc.

Technically, its perfectly legal to abort the baby right up until its acually born, though it would be very hard to find a doctor willing to do it.

[blackmamba1973]

In fact, most people are surprised when they learn that in Canada abortion is available until the days before giving birth...They always reply:"uh? I thought it was illegal after 3 months, who in their right mind would kill their baby at 7 months, etc.

Technically, its perfectly legal to abort the baby right up until its acually born, though it would be very hard to find a doctor willing to do it.

That's so bizarre...And gruesome.

I'd be interested to find statistics as to what is the # of PBA made in Canada...

[SUZANNE]

HHorton wrote:

We should not be arguing about the ends but working towards a common means to achieve what we both know is right and moral for all Canadians

You agree PBA is bad.

Here, I have quantified that most Canadians would not oppose a PBA ban:

http://conservativelife.com/blog/htsrv/ ... ck.php/269

Percentage who want some protection for the unborn child:
Environics October 2004: 68%
Leger and Leger Novmber 2003: 63%
Leger and Leger 2002: 56%
Gallup 2001: 66%

Percentage who want abortion legal in all circumstances:
October 2004 Environics: 28%
Gallup 2001: 32%
Gallup 2000: 37%
Gallup 1999: 28%
Gallup 1995: 35%

That means that approximately 2/3 of Canadians do not want abortion legal in all circumstances. Since Partial Birth Abortion is the most extreme form of abortion, we can safely deduce that most Canadians would not oppose a ban on this procedure. It may or may not produce votes, but it won't LOSE votes, either. The people who vote in favour of abortion all the time probably don't vote CPC anyway.

Since PBA is bad, and PBA won't lose votes, and may very well gain votes, and it would not be an imposition of your personal values, since most Canadians agree with you anyway, it would be in your interest, as someone who wants to see this practice come to an end, to support this resolution.

If you really believe that.

[Connie Fournier]

..... He seems to feels that there should be access to abortions but [b]with reasonable restictions[\b].

Bingo!

I don't see how this confirms your point, GOTV STUPID....unless you don't consider banning PBA a "reasonable restriction".

[HHorton]

Connie and ES::

Both of you seem annoyed with my specific questions to you, and you are unable to provide the forum with convincing reasons why Canadian voters will vote for a CPC that has PBA ban as it policy.

You may succeed in having a PBA ban win as a party grassroots movement, however you seem to conveniently ignore that the Canadian voter may be convinced by the Liberals, NPD, BQ and MSM that the CPC is trying to impose it's religious extremism in a TOP-DOWN MANNER ON THE CANADIAN PEOPLE.

It may be bottom-up within the CPC but it will be perceived as top-down if you present it as a rigid doctrinaire policy from the CPC. Are you willing to take the CPC along this path yet refuse to respond to my reasonable questions for justification of your feelings and beliefs?

I am not the issue and the onus is on those that are pressing for PBA ban as the CPC policy for the next election. Why do you hide behind your defensiveness while trying to discredit me and my legitimate concerns?

Why are you so fearful of valid questions concerning the acceptance or rejection of PBA by Canadian voters? Furthermore you have provided no convincing evidence that Harper will reverse his previous stance on abortion that he took before the Canadian public. Why should we believe that he will jump on your PBA bandwagon when he has clearly stated his views to the contrary?

I personally don't think that you can depend on Harper to adopt your PBA ban position regardless of your feelings.

[Connie Fournier]

That's so bizarre...And gruesome.

I'd be interested to find statistics as to what is the # of PBA made in Canada...

The last figures I heard, Ontario spent $450,000 in one year sending women to the US for the procedure (at approx. $5000 per person, that means they paid for 90 procedures that year in Ontario alone).

It is now illegal in the United States and, try as we will, we can't get the figures for how many of these are now performed in Canada.

But, there is a market demand for it, and it is legal here. If we don't fight it, Canada will become the PBA provider for North America.

[SUZANNE]

In fact, most people are surprised when they learn that in Canada abortion is available until the days before giving birth...They always reply:"uh? I thought it was illegal after 3 months, who in their right mind would kill their baby at 7 months, etc.

Technically, its perfectly legal to abort the baby right up until its acually born, though it would be very hard to find a doctor willing to do it.

That's so bizarre...And gruesome.

I'd be interested to find statistics as to what is the # of PBA made in Canada...

Abortion Debate

By MARGARET SOMERVILLE
professor, Centre for Medicine, Ethics and Law, McGill University
Friday, July 9, 2004 - Page A18 GLOBE AND MAIL

Statistics Canada does not include reasons for abortion among the "selected characteristics" on which it collects data. We don't even know how many post-20-week abortions there are. Fifty-four per cent of hospitals or clinics filing the abortion reports used by Statistics Canada do not give the gestational age -- it was not reported in 57,491 of 106,418 abortions in 2001. Among those reporting gestational age that year, there were 246 abortions after 21 weeks.

[Connie Fournier]

Both of you seem annoyed with my specific questions to you, and you are unable to provide the forum with convincing reasons why Canadian voters will vote for a CPC that has PBA ban as it policy.

Yes, I'm annoyed. I'm annoyed that you ignore evidence that we present to you on this issue. I'm annoyed that you refuse to answer questions that are directed to you. And, most of all, I'm annoyed that you have resorted to name-calling.

When you decide you want to discuss this issue in a rational way, I will be happy to talk to you about it again.

[khori_wan_kenobi]

I have read that between 400 and 500 are done a year in Canada.

[Hailey]

The last figures I heard, Ontario spent $450,000 in one year sending women to the US for the procedure (at approx. $5000 per person, that means they paid for 90 procedures that year in Ontario alone).

It is now illegal in the United States and, try as we will, we can't get the figures for how many of these are now performed in Canada.

But, there is a market demand for it, and it is legal here. If we don't fight it, Canada will become the PBA provider for North America.

They are actually happening in canada?

[khori_wan_kenobi]

Hailey,

I believe in Ontario, because no doctors would perform it (even thouth it was legal) we paid for the woman to have it done in the USA.

Now that there is a ban in the USA I don't know what the situation is.

[blackmamba1973]

Yikes! That's a lot!

I would have thought 50 or 60 at most.

I just don't understand the rationale at such a late stage...Why couldn't they do a C-section, and then put him/her for adoption. If it's at a viable stage...

I find this PBA procedure very upsetting. So if it upsets me, I presume that it would upset others who aren't 100% pro-lifers nor 100% pro-choicers...

[HHorton]

Since PBA is bad, and PBA won't lose votes, and may very well gain votes, and it would not be an imposition of your personal values, since most Canadians agree with you anyway, it would be in your interest, as someone who wants to see this practice come to an end, to support this resolution.

If you really believe that.

PBA is bad and it may not lose votes, but will it win votes in sufficient numbers to give the CPC a working government? Connie speculated that the CPC would gain votes in the pro-Liberal Catholic community but refuses to quantify her claims.

Can you provide the number of new Catholic votes that the CPC might gain and where these votes are located? Can you guarantee these Catholic votes if PBA ban is party policy?

If a PBA policy will not win votes of what use is it if it only entrenches Canadians to vote Liberal? Surely it would be more rational to elect a CPC government and then petition them to enact a PBA ban.

Why must the CPC be used to advance doctrinaire political and moral positions when it currently does not have the support of the Canadian voters and has difficulty overcoming the Liberal-MSM machine that effectively manipulates the electorate?

Why are you so willing to risk the future of the CPC with your devout beliefs that are not yet clearly accepted by a majority of Canadians when it counts most ... at the ballot box?

[Hailey]

Most of the babies are disabled children that are not wanted by their parents. They don't want them to live even - it's not about putting them up for adoption - it's about making sure they don't live

[blackmamba1973]

That's sad indeed.