Time for Alberta to get out...Stelmach please stand up!

[littleharbour]

It's official. Stelmach and the Alberta Tories have sold you out:

http://www.freedominion.ca/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=80029

[Hailey]

No, they didn't. Peope are accepting this. There is no uprising to speak of. If this is a sell out it's voter led.

And the Harper bots are the sell outs.

[littleharbour]

No, they didn't. Peope are accepting this. There is no uprising to speak of. If this is a sell out it's voter led.

And the Harper bots are the sell outs.

They are all sell-outs Hailey. The average person is too stupid and too lazy to sit down and figure out what this all means. Where do they think this $8 billion per year hit on the economy is going to come from? Who do they think will pay the carbon tax? What do they think will happen to their jobs when yet another Canadian company decides that the cost of regulation and taxation are too high and either close up shop or move production offshore? They think this is all going to be on the backs of the big bad corporation and that the cost of a fridge or stove will go up a mere $50. They are in total denial.

There were two polls on CTV.CA this week. In one, about 80% of the people said they were in favour of banning regular lightbulbs, a clear indication the average ctv.ca reader is an environmental softie. But over 80% also rejected the notion of a carbon tax. When the costs of products such as cars and appliances, the costs of gasoline and the costs of heating fuel, all skyrocket, these same people who want to pretend they are so environmentally virtuous will scream blue murder. They are the same people who will spend $5 on gas driving around to save 1 cent per litre on the price. When the chickens come home to roost these people will wake up and start claiming that nobody ever told them it would be so bad. And some of them will have plenty of time to contemplate their foolishness while sitting on the growing unemployment lines.

[Yoda]

No, they didn't. Peope are accepting this. There is no uprising to speak of. If this is a sell out it's voter led.

And the Harper bots are the sell outs.

They are all sell-outs Hailey. The average person is too stupid and too lazy to sit down and figure out what this all means. Where do they think this $8 billion per year hit on the economy is going to come from? Who do they think will pay the carbon tax? What do they think will happen to their jobs when yet another Canadian company decides that the cost of regulation and taxation are too high and either close up shop or move production offshore? They think this is all going to be on the backs of the big bad corporation and that the cost of a fridge or stove will go up a mere $50. They are in total denial.

There were two polls on CTV.CA this week. In one, about 80% of the people said they were in favour of banning regular lightbulbs, a clear indication the average ctv.ca reader is an environmental softie. But over 80% also rejected the notion of a carbon tax. When the costs of products such as cars and appliances, the costs of gasoline and the costs of heating fuel, all skyrocket, these same people who want to pretend they are so environmentally virtuous will scream blue murder. They are the same people who will spend $5 on gas driving around to save 1 cent per litre on the price. When the chickens come home to roost these people will wake up and start claiming that nobody ever told them it would be so bad. And some of them will have plenty of time to contemplate their foolishness while sitting on the growing unemployment lines.

Having a brain is a burden in a nation where the majority are mentally deficient.

[littleharbour]

Which is one reason why conservatives like Edmund Burke fought so hard against the extension of the franchise to people who did not own real property. He realized that if people who did not generate wealth, had the ability to confiscate wealth from those who did generate wealth, that the greed of the average citizen would take precedence over any sense of civic duty. We see this time and time again. People are more than willing to let the government screw their neighbour in the name of egalitarianism, as long as they are convinced it won't cost them. But it usually ends up costing them more than they realize, because when wealth generation is punished - we all suffer [all but the scum suckers who sit in elected office and live like parasites off the taxpayers]

[Beacon Hill]

When the costs of products such as cars and appliances, the costs of gasoline and the costs of heating fuel, all skyrocket, these same people who want to pretend they are so environmentally virtuous will scream blue murder.

The costs of fossil fuels has been skyrocketing in the last few years and it has nothing to do with people's concern for the environment. A few years ago, for instance, gasoline cost about 50 cents a litre and now it costs about double that. Imagine a few years ago if we would have invested in fuel efficient and alternate-fuel vehicles. When world oil prices shot up, we would not be so adversely affected. Our economy wouldn't be hurt because we would not be so reliant on oil.

The madness is what we are doing now - a world economy so reliant on fossil fuels that pollute (costing billions in health care costs. subsidies to oil companies, and clean up costs down the road). Reliance on oil is especially bad because it is a finite resource that will continue to go up in price, and it also props up dangersous governments in the Middle East.

Clean energy can be locally produced, cheaper, and it doesn't have any of the hidden costs that fossil fuels do. Do you know why there are warnings about mercury levels in fish? You can thank the coal industry. We're not going to have those types of problems with wind, solar and other clean sources of energy. Imagine the economic effect on the fishing industry if our fish become more contaminated and you couldn't even enjoy the couple servings a month that is all that is safe to eat (for some species) now.

[C.Morgan]

When the costs of products such as cars and appliances, the costs of gasoline and the costs of heating fuel, all skyrocket, these same people who want to pretend they are so environmentally virtuous will scream blue murder.

The costs of fossil fuels has been skyrocketing in the last few years and it has nothing to do with people's concern for the environment. A few years ago, for instance, gasoline cost about 50 cents a litre and now it costs about double that. Imagine a few years ago if we would have invested in fuel efficient and alternate-fuel vehicles. When world oil prices shot up, we would not be so adversely affected. Our economy wouldn't be hurt because we would not be so reliant on oil.

The madness is what we are doing now - a world economy so reliant on fossil fuels that pollute (costing billions in health care costs. subsidies to oil companies, and clean up costs down the road). Reliance on oil is especially bad because it is a finite resource that will continue to go up in price, and it also props up dangersous governments in the Middle East.

Clean energy can be locally produced, cheaper, and it doesn't have any of the hidden costs that fossil fuels do. Do you know why there are warnings about mercury levels in fish? You can thank the coal industry. We're not going to have those types of problems with wind, solar and other clean sources of energy. Imagine the economic effect on the fishing industry if our fish become more contaminated and you couldn't even enjoy the couple servings a month that is all that is safe to eat (for some species) now.

Ahhh what a load of BS. I have been in the oilfield for 15 years now and have watched as regulatory issues have more than doubled our cost of operations. This new pile of crap may double the cost yet again.

When people whine about the cost to fill their cars or heat their homes, they need only look to the nearest "environmentalist" to see what the reason was.

[littleharbour]

That's the point I've been trying to make. When Baird stands up and says it will cost at most $8 billion per year, he is looking at the direct cost of taxes and the increased price of goods [and just when has Ottawa ever been correct in any estimate - it could just as easily be $20 billion per year]. But let's assume his number is correct. He has still not factored in the cost to the economy if the tax and regulatory burden causes plants to close, people to lose their jobs, and investment in the oil sands to slow down.

Here is the basic insanity of all of this. Oil and gas in Alberta are still subject to world market prices. The price of a barrel of oil will be set by the overall global demand and supply from numerous sources, not by the cost of production in Alberta or elsewhere in Canada. Those producing these products in Canada will see their costs rise but will not be able to pass that cost on to the refiners, who can just as easily import oil from other countries. If you suck billions out of the oil patch, there may still be some level of investment, but that loss of revenue will have an impact on how much exploration occurs, how fast oil upgraders are built, and whether the big oil companies decide to spend money here or in Nigeria and Thailand.

Retailers on the other hand, face a different situation. They still have customers who want quality goods at the lowest price. If Canadian manufacturers become less competitive because of increased environment regulations and carbon taxes, they will simply buy those products from other countries. The province of Ontario may find it more economical to shut down their coal fire plants and buy electricity from Pennsylvannia, rather than building expensive nuclear reactors. And pennsylvannia generates most of its electricity through coal. In both examples, this will mean jobs lost to foreign countries who are not burdened by Kyoto.

[Hailey]

They are all sell-outs Hailey. The average person is too stupid and too lazy to sit down and figure out what this all means. Where do they think this $8 billion per year hit on the economy is going to come from? Who do they think will pay the carbon tax? What do they think will happen to their jobs when yet another Canadian company decides that the cost of regulation and taxation are too high and either close up shop or move production offshore? They think this is all going to be on the backs of the big bad corporation and that the cost of a fridge or stove will go up a mere $50. They are in total denial.

I agree that most have underestimated what this is going to mean.

I do believe that it is going to mean 40 years in the wilderness for the CPC when it occurs on their watch.

There were two polls on CTV.CA this week. In one, about 80% of the people said they were in favour of banning regular lightbulbs, a clear indication the average ctv.ca reader is an environmental softie. But over 80% also rejected the notion of a carbon tax. When the costs of products such as cars and appliances, the costs of gasoline and the costs of heating fuel, all skyrocket, these same people who want to pretend they are so environmentally virtuous will scream blue murder. They are the same people who will spend $5 on gas driving around to save 1 cent per litre on the price. When the chickens come home to roost these people will wake up and start claiming that nobody ever told them it would be so bad. And some of them will have plenty of time to contemplate their foolishness while sitting on the growing unemployment lines.

I was surprised that it was eighty percent to be honest.