Danny Williams' declaration of independence

Provinces can reclaim constitutional provincial jurisdiction
<b><u>within</b></u> confederation, <b><u>without</b></u> permission of Ottawa.

Postby JurisNaturalist » 04/ 24/ 07 10:39 pm

Wow, I remember when FDers were praising Danny Williams for his intestinal fortitude. I guess even on FD you can be a hero one minute a bum the next. At any rate, I still admire the man for his tenacity and loyalty to his constituents.

I admit that I know very little about Newfoundland and Labrador but from what I have read they do have much to be annoyed about. Becoming a province of Canada was a very touchy issue that many believe came about as a result of Great Britian owing a debt to Canada. Some would say that democracy took a back seat to manipulation and power.

Some of their other complaints would include - Off shore oil rights, fishing, pulp and paper - stumpage fees, Hydro electricity. I think there was even a fly over fee that was supposed to go to Newfoundland but has gone consistently to the federal government.

Truthfully, I think if Newfoundland and Labrador had been left alone they would have become quite a prosperous little country.

Go for it Danny boy! :hurray:
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Postby Cod Father » 04/ 24/ 07 11:03 pm

Want to see another thing that pisses off the Newfs?

Here is the map of Quebec from NRCan
Image

Here is the map of Newfoundland and Labrador from them:
http://www.nr.gov.nl.ca/mines&en/maps/P ... _Sites.pdf

And here is what the Government of Quebec recognizes:
http://www.mtq.gouv.qc.ca/fr/publicatio ... ec_11M.pdf

We've still got a boundary dispute that was supposed to have been resolved in 1927 at the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in London!
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Postby duotang » 04/ 24/ 07 11:55 pm

JurisNaturalist wrote:Becoming a province of Canada was a very touchy issue that many believe came about as a result of Great Britian owing a debt to Canada.


"Many" believe a lot of siht. That doesn't make it true.

Some of their other complaints would include - Off shore oil rights, fishing, pulp and paper - stumpage fees, Hydro electricity.


Stumpages fees and hydro are under provincial jurisdiction.

I think there was even a fly over fee that was supposed to go to Newfoundland but has gone consistently to the federal government.


Wrong. There are some people in Newfoundland who think they shoudl collect it, because that's what liars in the separatist media down there have told them for years.

Go for it Danny boy! :hurray:


Yeah, go, Danny and don't let the door hit your arse.
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Postby duotang » 04/ 24/ 07 11:56 pm

Cod Father wrote:Want to see another thing that pisses off the Newfs?

We've still got a boundary dispute that was supposed to have been resolved in 1927 at the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council in London!


What about those "Newf" maps that don't even show Labrador at all?
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Postby Faramir » 04/ 25/ 07 2:08 am

The Newfies will be leaving the gravy train - it won't happen.
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Postby freenewf » 04/ 25/ 07 2:23 am

bulldog905 wrote:Is he going to stop taking handouts?

I didn't count myself independent of my parents, until I did.


FreeNewf's RANT # 57 :

Bulldog, I'm embarrassed too, by this politically correct, self-contradictory jumble of verbiage in the Throne Speech, not terribly well-written, but ...

'Read out' the b.s., and look at the core of the message: it's similar, in some respects, to what Albertans talked about when discussing the 'firewall' for Alberta.

So someone (duotang!) is trying to make something out of the fact that a Newfoundland Throne Speech employed the phrase "masters in our own house," and that smacks of ... what? ... Quebec rhetoric?

So what? Isn't "masters in our own house" what Albertans want to be?

Danny's Throne Speech involves devolution of powers; it calls for respect for provinces' proper spheres of jurisdiction, and some sort of solution to the anomaly Newfoundland finds itself in, regarding provincial jurisdiction over natural resources, when we are primarily an ocean-based province; I think it implicitly accepts asymmetrical federalism ... eventually.

Why is it that so many here at FD seem to have a hate-on for Newfoundland? All our fellow conservatives seem able to see are the so-called 'handouts' you referred to, Bulldog.

There is the distinction, of course (re: 'firewall') that Alberta is financially independent and self-sustaining, while Newfoundland is not. But Newfoundland is trying to get where Alberta IS.

How to do so, though, when so many Albertans, with whom Newfoundlanders share a strong regional alienation, can only blather on about Newfoundland taking 'handouts'?

The problem is that what Newfoundland RECEIVES is highly visible (and the socialists - whether of the Conservative or Liberal variety - make such noise about what they dole out), whereas what they TAKE is largely invisible, is 'off the books,' and is NEVER acknowledged.

(Remember, too, that there are only a half-million of us here, in any case, so the total dollars we're talking about isn't large in the grand scheme of things. There seems to be more squawking on FD about Danny and Newfoundland than the billions Harper pumped into Quebec recently, to prop up Charest!)

Do I need to remind you also, once again (for the umpteenth time), that despite what the constitution of Canada requires, Newfoundland's interests have been sacrificed time and time again on Quebec's altars? Newfoundlanders believe ... KNOW ... that with a mere 7 seats in the federal Parliament, our interests will never be considered if they impinge even slightly on Quebec's. The federal government has proved this to us time and time again. (One of the reasons why, in my Reform days, I was gung-ho on a Triple E Senate. Still am.)

Trudeau advised Peckford not to worry, "... we will take care of you, as we do the Indians." Chretien, while Trudeau's Minister, quipped that if the Newfies thought they were going to have any say in the offshore oil development, they had 'delusions of grandeur' ... and this was not long after the rape of Alberta.

We do not want to be 'taken care of.' That is insulting. Yes, that was Trudeau speaking, and we know what an arrogant sh*t he was, but the federal government and bureaucracy still demonstrates the same condescending, disrespectful attitude toward us.

We do not think we have 'delusions of grandeur' in expecting to be able to benefit, substantially, from resources the Supreme Court acknowledged that we brought INTO Canada with us when we joined.

We cannot and WILL not tolerate that kind of contempt anymore. We are a proud, hard-working people who came into Canada with a surplus in the bank. Hundreds upon hundreds of our skippers put in at ports-of-call around the world for generations. We were far less 'insular' and 'provincial' than Canada itself ... though since having been drawn into the Canadian web we are now more cut off from the world than we were in '49 !

Not all the industrious, conservative Newfoundlanders have moved to Alberta, you know. (Some of us might like to, but can't for family reasons.) Joey Smallwood and socialism hooked us on a financial heroin. A UIC program geared for an industrial economy was inappropriately applied to a seasonal, hunter-gatherer economy (and further abused by politicians, for political reasons, dealing with an unsophisticated and poor - but not stupid - populace).

We are trying to get through a methadone phase. We have 15% unemployment, and it's NOT because 15% of us are lazy. (What would the rhetoric of the premier of Alberta or Ontario be like, if facing 15% unemployment, and out-migration destroying communities and families?)

Before the offshore oil was EVER on the horizon, and the Atlantic Accord had not even been thought of, Quebec's obscene profits from the Churchill Falls hydro contract matched almost exactly the amount Newfoundland received in equalization. If the federal government had the balls to stand up to Quebec, and abide by the constitution, Newfoundland would not NEED equalization.

Forget the atrocity that, for purposes of calculating equalization payments, Quebec's revenue from Churchill Falls is not considered to be part of Quebec's GDP, thus making Quebec appear poorer than it actually is, thus inflating Quebec's equalization payments. TRIPLE-dipping! And Newfoundland gets the abuse? Go figure!

Well, figure this: it's easier to sh*t on the little guy - Newfoundland - than it is to have the guts to confront Quebec, 'cause Newfoundland has 7 seats, and doesn't count a pinch of coon-sh*t, while Quebec has 75 seats, and Canada hangs together or falls apart depending on what happens with those 75 seats.

We are trying to reach the point - one way or another - where we do NOT need equalization. But we can't overcome fifty years of socialism in one jump. It requires a thorough overhaul of not just our political class, but our education system and media as well. As long as our schools pump socialist drivel into the heads of our kids (as they do EVERYWHERE in Canada), the job is delayed.

I for one am a heretic - I think Newfoundland should separate from Canada ... but NOT because I bear any animosity toward Canada or Canadians (Liberals, YES!).

I think Newfoundland should separate so that Newfoundland politicians, and primarily the people, will be deprived of the excuse of blaming everything on Ottawa. There is a lot of genuine blame that CAN be laid at Ottawa's feet, but that's not getting us anywhere. Separation would force us to face facts and rely only upon ourselves.

Adopting an Icelandic attitude would do us a world of good, morally, economically, politically.

But it would also mean that we would be, in fact, finally, masters in our own house. No more anomalies over federal control over our 'provincial' natural (offshore) resources. A currency that we could float to remain competitive in world markets - as Iceland was able to do. And on, and on.

I for one am confident that we could make quite a go of it on our own. After all, we did for 300 years before joining Canada.

Even if separation DID result in a lower standard of living, regaining one's self-respect is (as the MasterCard commercials tout) ... priceless!

No more having to put up with arrogant, ignorant, snooty mainlanders looking down their noses at us ... when they don't know what the He*l they're talking about. Never knew anything about the history and background of Newfoundland ... and never cared much anyway.

Here endeth RANT # 57 (part One); ... to be continued ...
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Postby freenewf » 04/ 25/ 07 3:17 am

Muddy wrote:Uh Mr. Williams ,you nice folks killed off all the aboriginals on the Rock. You might not know your history. They were called the Boethuk(spelling).Last survivor died in 1885 I believe. Her name was Mary. So tell me more about this great nation your building for everyone. I thought for a moment I had a Queber spouting off.


Muddy, your contempt for Newfoundland fairly oozes from your words.

Yeah, we (or rather, our ancestors) 'killed off' the Beothuks. As you said, 1885 or thereabouts. 122 years ago. Largely by disease (unintentional) rather than by gunshot.

We tried to honour the Beothuks, in a small way, by having the nickname of the Memorial University sports teams as the 'Beothuks' ... until stupid socialist politically correct idiots raised ludicrous objections, so now we don't memorialize our native Indians at all ... Memorial University's teams now call themselves the SeaHawks - a moniker that has NO cultural or historic resonance.

You thought you heard a Quebecer spouting off, did you?

Quebec was never a legal nation in the international arena.

Newfoundland WAS.

Newfoundland was a Dominion in its own right (for however brief a period) with identical constitutional status to Canada, Australia, South Africa, etc.

Keep that in mind when you try to understand why Newfoundlanders take the positions they do.

If you DO try to understand.

Newfoundland was the first overseas colony of Great Britain ... the origin of the British Empire. Over centuries we achieved independent status within the Commonwealth. We were the only nation to pay off our World War I national war debt ... which was largely why we were less able to weather the storm of the Depression. (Our standard of living was, relatively, not much worse than the rest of the world at the time.)

Our WWI losses were, relatively, higher than Canada's, and devastated a generation of our young men on the scale that Britain's own were devastated ... something historians acknowledge explains Britain's long, slow retreat from Empire.

When we asked Britain for financial aid through the Depression, the condition for help was that we surrender self-government, and accept a 'Commission' of managers from Britain.

Today, Western nations ladle out 'foreign aid' to dictatorships with no strings attached.

Our self-governing Dominion status was supposed to be returned to us at such time as we regained financial self-sufficiency. At the end of WW 2 we HAD achieved that ... but promises were not kept.

My grandfather was Chairman of Newfoundland's Responsible Government League in the post-war referenda period. That League argued that we should have self-government restored to us FIRST, for at least a number of years, before ever considering such a fateful step as confederation with Canada.

We had been under a Commission of Government from 1934 through the end of the War. There had been no 'provincial' ( national ) elections for a decade and a half ... and the people were being railroaded and pressured into a decision on the fate of their nation.

One referendum didn't get the result desired by Britain and Canada, so we were put through a second referedum, which got a 51% favourable vote.

And you wonder why some of us - who haven't lost our minds or our memories - argue the way we do?

The Bank of Montreal and the Bank of Nova Scotia was in here and up to their eyeballs in our national referenda, as were various Canadian manufacturing concerns. Joey Smallwood was awash in money, but 'nobody' knew where the money came from.

Newfoundland had almost finalized a free trade agreement with the U.S. in the early part of the century ... which got squashed when Canada ran to Westminster complaining.

Don't spout snide about Newfoundland 'the nation' - we WERE a nation when Toronto wasn't even hogtown.

Newfoundland's decline as a self-respecting small international trading nation and homogeneous society dates FROM our union with Canada!

Contrary to mainland conceits, Canada has not lifted us UP ... because Canada's own decline into socialism began at about the very same time Canada 'took us under your wing' - so you've succeeded in dragging us down with you!

When we joined you, you were a respectable nation in the British Commonwealth. What are you now? What self-respecting small country would want to merge into the Canadian snakepit today? Socialism, multicultural nonsense, bilingual lunacy, etc. etc. Toronto, the 'Queen City' of English Canada, now a polyglot ghetto with 1/3rd foreign born.

Look to your own flaws.
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Postby littleharbour » 04/ 25/ 07 8:11 am

duotang wrote:
doggedlyright wrote:The threat of separation works for Quebec.

I wonder if the hydro electric dams that Quebece claims as theirs will revert back to NFLD's hands.


Which ones would those be?



Churchill Falls. And Quebec doesn't actually claim to own them. They are happy to let Newfoundland run them and maintain them, as long as the Newfs still have to sell the electricity to them at 1950's power rates.
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Postby duotang » 04/ 25/ 07 8:44 am

littleharbour wrote:Churchill Falls. And Quebec doesn't actually claim to own them. They are happy to let Newfoundland run them and maintain them, as long as the Newfs still have to sell the electricity to them at 1950's power rates.


1960s.

And tell us, how much capital did Newfoundland invest to build the project?

How much did Quebec?
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Postby littleharbour » 04/ 25/ 07 8:53 am

duotang wrote:
littleharbour wrote:Churchill Falls. And Quebec doesn't actually claim to own them. They are happy to let Newfoundland run them and maintain them, as long as the Newfs still have to sell the electricity to them at 1950's power rates.


1960s.

And tell us, how much capital did Newfoundland invest to build the project?

How much did Quebec?



I have no idea. I liken this to a sports contract with a rookie who turns out unexpectedly to be a superstar. Yes, the team can insist that the player fulfil the contract at the original price. But forcing the player to accept compensation which is far below his market worth is going to breed resentment and ensure that the player goes elsewhere when his contract is over. When NF is finally out from under this one-sided deal, Quebec is going to lose a huge source of revenue and the chances of future cooperation are nil. By then, the electicity transmission technology will likely have advanced sufficiently for NF to bypass Quebec completely and sell its electricity directly into the US Northeast. A little goodwill now would have gone a long way to building a lasting partnership for the future.
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Postby Electric Gulag » 04/ 25/ 07 8:56 am

Now that Newfoundland has got off-shore oil, all it has to do is bang out an economic partnership with the U.S., and hire a bunch of Pakistani foreign workers, and it can become the Dubai of North America. If I were a Newf, I'd want separation.
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Postby jiboom » 04/ 25/ 07 9:14 am

freenewf, you put forth some very compelling points vis-a-vis the province of Newfoundland and Labrador.


By the way, with respect to duotang, this person makes me think of three letters, 'WJM'. Is that you Wally?
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Postby rewjr » 04/ 25/ 07 10:03 am

Danny McMillions accuses the Harper government of a lie and renaging on the PM's deal but isn't that the Big Pot calling the kettle black as he has lied to the natives on their resources deal in Labrador ...

So Danny boy is now discredited and comes off as a adicted whiner who can not let go of the defeatist hand out mentality.

All Harper wants is to re-educated the populace with positive self respect of a hand up approach.

This is adhorrent to the Libs as they want to keep people brainwashed buying their votes with their own money...
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Postby duotang » 04/ 25/ 07 10:27 am

littleharbour wrote:A little goodwill now would have gone a long way to building a lasting partnership for the future.


Words to live by. It's strange though when Hydro-Quebec offered to re-open the deal in the early 1980s, Peckford slapped them away, went to court on a case everyone told him he would lose, and he did.
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Postby duotang » 04/ 25/ 07 10:28 am

jiboom wrote:By the way, with respect to duotang, this person makes me think of three letters, 'WJM'. Is that you Wally?


No.
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