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 ZERONOMOJoined: 05 Mar 2003 Total posts: 809 Gender: Unknown
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 Posted: 12/ 28/ 03 6:41 am Post subject: FREE SPEECH IS A CRIME IN CANADA |
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THIS IS ONE OF THE RELIGIOUS FEW THAT HAS THE GUTS TO SPEAK OUT 
Outspoken activist prepares for court date
Anti-Islam statements put Mark Harding in court
By Doug Koop ChristianWeek staff
TORONTO–As Mark Harding waits for his trial on "incitement to hatred" charges to begin in late April, he has two major points he wants to communicate. First, he is concerned that Christians in Canada are in the process of losing their freedom to uphold their faith convictions in public life.
And he continues to be deeply disturbed that "a lot of Christians are under the impression that the Allah in the Koran is the same God we worship. That isn’t true. I’ve become stronger in my devotion to get that message across to all Christians in Canada."
Harding, who has aggressively evangelized among Muslims in Ontario for years, hit the headlines last June when he distributed pamphlets outside a high school. He was protesting the principal’s decision to allow Muslim students to use school facilities and miss regular teaching times for religious observance–accommodations he says are denied to Christian groups (CW, Aug5/97).
"Since when is it okay to turn our schools into mosques? Since when is it okay to miss classes and pray and teach a Muslim religion in our schools?" he asks. "No religion should be promoted in the public schools," declares Harding. "Muslims will use the school system to propagate their religion. Meanwhile, Christians are being shut out."
Intolerant
The offending pamphlets discussed Islamic societies around the world where "Muslims are torturing, maiming, starving and killing Christians" simply because of their faith. Harding argues that Islam "is full of hate and violence," and that its holy books teach that it "will always be at war" with other religions. "Once a state becomes an Islamic state, no other religion is tolerated," he says.
His outspokenness last June landed Harding in trouble with the Muslim community, and he is going to trial next month to face criminal charges on three counts of "incitement to hatred." Complaints were also lodged with the Canadian Human Rights Commission. He was arrested and spent a few days in jail before a hearing last summer.
Harding is largely unrepentant as his trial date approaches, and he is confident that "the charges should be dismissed" under existing religious protection provisions in the law. He believes that judicial authorities succumbed to pressure because of vociferous complaints from the Muslim community.
"My free speech has been taken away," he says. "The government does not understand Islam and what it’s all about."
Meanwhile, Harding now hosts a weekly radio show, Voice of Christian Martyrs, broadcast out of Oakville. Discussing a recent interview on the program, he says that "the Egyptian ambassador had no trouble telling me that when a Muslim becomes a Christian they are taken to court and the judge must set the punishment. Islamic law calls for them to be beheaded," he adds.
Same agenda
George Batarseh, pastor of the Waterloo Arabic Pentecostal Church, says that Muslims in North America are becoming very adept at raising their profile, particularly at universities where Muslim Students Associations are working to unite Muslims on campus, establish them in their Islamic identity, promote Islam and gain converts.
He observes that "faithful Muslims have a goal and an agenda. They are out there to Islamize the world," he says. "Just as Christian have a Great Commission, so do the Muslims."
As for Harding, he recently wrote supporters to say that "during the two days I spent in jail I was treated like a rapist or a murderer when my only ‘crime’ was believing that Muslims are lost and in need of the Lord Jesus Christ who is the only savior of sinners. If I have to spend the next two years in prison for believing this, then so be it.
"My heart remains committed to my Lord and Savior whom I serve," he continues. "If he wants me to be a prisoner for Christ like the apostle Paul or like many other Christians in Muslim countries today, then I am willing to bear the cost.
"But if I am convicted of a ‘hate crime’ because I told the Muslims the truth that Muhammad was a false prophet and the Bible, not the Koran, is the Word of God, then no Christian is safe in Canada."
Harding can be contacted at 416-724-3343.
http://www.christianweek.org/stories/vol11/no23/story5.htm
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Mr. Valentine
Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Total posts: 4161 Location: Nova Scotia Gender: Male
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| Posted: 12/ 28/ 03 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Hate crime charges can be defeated (like libel and slander charges) if you are able to prove what you are saying is true.
I hope this guy is able to do so.
_________________
"You, on the other hand, are clearly pro-al-Qaeda scum, since you have - quite knoiwingly [sic]- become an active agent of the enemy. If this were a just world, there would be swift punishment for people such as yourself, who spread lies and dissenssion [sic] and undermine the war effort." -Adam Yoshida on my pro-terrorist credentials, and endorsing a fascist worldview |
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| LondonLady Joined: 28 Feb 2002 Total posts: 21506 Location: London Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 12/ 28/ 03 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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This past spring a churchmember of a local congregation in London left several similar gospel type tracts about Islam at a coffee shop here in the city.
A Muslim picked up one of the tracts, was offended at several references to Allah historically being the "Moon God" and the other pagan origins of several key Islamic beliefs, and called the London Police.
The chief officer of the London Hate Crimes unit tracked down the pastor of the church member who had left the offending tract and met with him at the church office.
The officer said, and I quote, "With what is written in this tract I have enough to arrest you right this very moment." (Apparently some of the tracts had been left by this same person on the back table of the church)
The Pastor held out both hands and said, "You should have been here on Sunday to hear what I said about the Islamic religion, it was much more strongly phrased than what is in that tract, and totally from the Bible itself. Go ahead, arrest me now."
They spent the next hour in discussion, the pastor telling the Hate Crimes policeman all about his Christian faith and what the Bible said as opposed to the Islamic faith. He was courteous but kept his arguments totally Bible-based.
After ascertaining that the Pastor was not spreading "hate," and being satisfied that the church member in question did not mean to incite genocide or anything sinister, the Hate Crimes officer left the church office without further incident.
It seemed the decision to arrest or press further charges was totally at the descretion of the officer based upon his impressions of that particular moment.
What is so terrifying about this episode is the fact that the Pastor of that church had to even go through such an inquisition, when Muslims are able to freely teach that Christians are infidels, have their teachings taught in public schools, and further, they are openly able to call for the destruction of Israel, Jews, Americans, and Christians in their mosques (this is a particular problem at the Finsbury Park Mosque in London, England) and no one dares raise a peep.
Free speech for certain groups is under attack more than ever, and most people are totally ignorant that what was once insidious subtle attacks are growing more blatant.
London came within a hairsbreath this spring of passing a Hate Crimes policy within its by-laws for the city of London which would have put the onus for proving innocence upon the accused, and would have made it sufficient for an act or speech or belief to be considered a hate crime merely if the feelings of an individual bringing the charge were hurt.Fortunately it was defeated, but I am sure we have not heard the end of it. |
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Mr. Valentine
Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Total posts: 4161 Location: Nova Scotia Gender: Male
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| Posted: 12/ 28/ 03 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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The consequences of these laws are terrifying.
People get along much better when the government doesn't get its dirty hands on speech.
They learn to sort out their differences without having to "tell on" their opponents to the government.
_________________
"You, on the other hand, are clearly pro-al-Qaeda scum, since you have - quite knoiwingly [sic]- become an active agent of the enemy. If this were a just world, there would be swift punishment for people such as yourself, who spread lies and dissenssion [sic] and undermine the war effort." -Adam Yoshida on my pro-terrorist credentials, and endorsing a fascist worldview |
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| freedom-man Joined: 17 Apr 2003 Total posts: 3933 Location: Greater Toronto Area, Ontario, Canada Gender: Male
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| Posted: 12/ 28/ 03 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| for those who know little about arabian history the muslim religion IS a continuation of the moon god cult which is an ancient arab religion where the worshippers make pilgrimages to Mecca and walk around a black stone and kissing it until mohammed comes twisted it up and call it islam |
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| Stupidpinko Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Total posts: 221 Location: Here Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 12/ 29/ 03 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. valentine wrote:
| Quote: | | Hate crime charges can be defeated (like libel and slander charges) if you are able to prove what you are saying is true. |
That is incorrect. At Doug Collins' HRT kangaroo court, the adjudicator stated plainly "The truth is no defense" and "hurt feelings are the issue."
I hate to say it, (again) but conservatives who kept quiet about people like Ernst Zundel, and are still keeping quiet about his outrageous jailing, are in no position to complain when the machinary of "Hate Speech" is turned against them and their churches.
If you don't believe in Free Speech for Zundel, you don't believe in free Speech at all. Wake up, all, you don't have to agree with him to defend his right to think what he wants.
_________________
There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than seperates us. Above all, there is a geniune revolutionary feeling, that is alive everywhere, except where there are Jewish marxists..Adolf Hitler |
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| Stupidpinko Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Total posts: 221 Location: Here Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 12/ 29/ 03 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a related article that appeared in the national Post on Sunday, written by George Jonas. It comments on the double standards of "Hate Speech" when used as a political weapon. Which they are, every time they are used.
http://www.gamla.org.il/english/article/2003/dec/g2.htm
| Quote: | | Another kind of problem is that Canada's Prime Minister -- in whose country people have been prosecuted for expressing similar sentiments -- shook Dr. Mahathir's hand after his speech without a hint of censure. At first blush this seems puzzling. Mr. Chrétien no doubt supports legislation in Canada that prosecutes people who make remarks like Dr. Mahathir's. In this he's different from me, for I don't think that people like the schoolteacher James Keegstra, the Holocaust-denier Ernst Zundel or the late journalist Doug Collins should be hauled before courts or human rights tribunals for their vapid and venomous sentiments. I'd just draw the line at shaking hands with them. Mr. Chrétien's ethics seem to be more situational. Lock up one, shake hands with the other. |
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There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than seperates us. Above all, there is a geniune revolutionary feeling, that is alive everywhere, except where there are Jewish marxists..Adolf Hitler |
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| LondonLady Joined: 28 Feb 2002 Total posts: 21506 Location: London Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 12/ 29/ 03 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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We have libel, slander, and "incitement to genocide or sedition" laws for very good reasons, but I do draw the line at the extension of "hate crimes" directed toward speaking unpopular or politically incorrect truth.
Passing outright lies or unsubstantiated beliefs off to the generally dimwitted and uneducated public or as truth to school kids as James Keegstra did is another thing. That would be where I would define a limit to "freedom". I doubt any of us would agree that some Mein Kampf toting teacher should be able to espouse the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" to school kids in Canada under the guise of "freedom of speech" since that old racial and religious screed is a proveable fraud and a lie. Yet it IS taught to school kids in Muslim countries and broadcast over their airwaves. I think we all agree that no one should yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre either, or go around telling someone to kill someone else, so to a great degree we have already accepted that "freedom of speech is not absolute".
It's unfortunate that not all people self-control and self-regulate, but in a world of reality that doesn't happen, so to protect others society generally agrees in some limits and boundaries to behavior.
I think that the Truth should be a defence but isn't for the PC bunch, and that's where current limits have gone too far.
If a statement is historically or medically true (such as the statement that homosexuality is a medically dangerous lifestyle) then those speaking such truths should be immune from legal consequences.
As far as I know, history does not show any of Zundel's or Keegstra's beliefs to have any basis in fact, and seem to play into the hands of the |
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| Stupidpinko Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Total posts: 221 Location: Here Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 12/ 29/ 03 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | We have libel, slander, and "incitement to genocide or sedition" laws for very good reasons, but I do draw the line at the extension of "hate crimes" directed toward speaking unpopular or politically incorrect truth.
Passing outright lies or unsubstantiated beliefs off to the generally dimwitted and uneducated public or as truth to school kids as James Keegstra did is another thing. |
If what James Keegstra did was incitement to genocide, or libel, or slander, then by all means, charge him. That is not my understanding of what occured.
According to the newspaper reports I read, James Keegstra was a devout Christian, who complained about secular Jewish lobby groups and their determination to remove any reference to Christ from public life, including such religious holidays as Christmas. He was, according to his students, a complete gentleman. (I was reading the newspaper reports at the time of this incident) If his honestly held personal views disqualify him from being a public school teacher, so be it.
But be that as it may, when we start to make laws regulating private citizen's thoughts, as happened to Zundel, and then further jail them for having incorrect beliefs, we are far along the road to a totalitarian society. Make no mistake, once the genie is out of the bottle for regulating thoughts that don't conform to popular positions, as happened to Zundel for antagonizing jewish groups, it's hardly a surprise that homosexual, anti-religious, and other special interest groups are going to use these same laws to silence their "hate-filled" opponents.
As a matter of self defense, if nothing else, you should oppose the jailing of Zundel.
First, they came for the communists.......
_________________
There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than seperates us. Above all, there is a geniune revolutionary feeling, that is alive everywhere, except where there are Jewish marxists..Adolf Hitler |
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| Stupidpinko Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Total posts: 221 Location: Here Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 12/ 29/ 03 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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On a related note, a victory for free Speech in Boston, of all places.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,106904,00.html
The St. Patrick's Day parade is not compelled to accommodate lunatic leftists, owing to freedom of association laws.
Canada should be so fortunate as to have a Constitution that does not subjugate individual rights in favor of PC causes.
_________________
There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than seperates us. Above all, there is a geniune revolutionary feeling, that is alive everywhere, except where there are Jewish marxists..Adolf Hitler |
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| LondonLady Joined: 28 Feb 2002 Total posts: 21506 Location: London Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 12/ 29/ 03 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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I did a brief internet search and came up with some simple references. I'm sure there are many more "official" sites but basically the gist would be the same.
This is why James Keegstra was charged with a hate crime:
| Quote: | James Keegstra, an Alberta high school teacher, taught his class that the Nazis did not kill six million Jewish people during the Holocaust. He also made many anti-Semitic remarks and taught about a conspiracy of Jewish people to take over the world. He told his students that for many of our social problems, the Jews were responsible. What he said is simply not true. The law convicted James Keegstra of the crime of wilfully promoting hatred. Because Keegstra said this to his students during class time, the statements were public and not part of a private conversation. The Supreme Court of Canada decided that Keegstra said them on purpose to incite hatred against Jewish people. The Court also said that an ordinary person would know that the statements were false, even if Keegstra believed they were true. (05.21.9 |
http://www.acjnet.org/youthfaq/define.html
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This is why Zundel was convicted of a hate crime:
| Quote: | The Holocaust is historical fact. The death of six million Jews as a result of Nazi hatred, fear and sense of superiority is historical fact. The use of gas chambers to accomplish hundreds of thousands of these murders is historical fact. Plain and simple.
Regardless, there are people who spend a substantial amount of their time trying to deny its occurrence. In spite of these people, I do not live in fear of another Holocaust as a result of their efforts. I do not believe that those who deny the Holocaust will be successful in their endeavour, whatever their endeavour may be.
Ernest Zundel denies the Holocaust. He lives in Toronto and continually prints and distributes anti-Holocaust literature. With a cleverly designed web site to his credit, he presents a list of 66 frequently asked questions about the Holocaust and then answers them in ways that are counter-factual. He wonders why Jews supposedly on their way to the gas chamber, knowing that they were to be murdered, did not resist. He concludes that they must have been confident that their lives were safe. He suggests that the internment of Jews in Germany was because they posed a security threat—in 1935, Jews in the diaspora (Jews living outside of today’s Israel) boycotted Nazi products. The Nazis had a legitimate reason to fear an internal Jewish uprising. This is 100 per cent garbage.
A Letter to the Editor in last week’s Imprint suggested that Zundel is a persecuted man. It further suggested that he is persecuted for the simple reason of having and espousing a dissident opinion of the Holocaust that it didn’t happen.
Let me be quite clear in the following statement.
Denial of the Holocaust is not a dissident opinion. It is a lie, it is a disgusting, degrading lie.
Zundel’s very opinions persecute others. Not only does he actively persecute the memory of six million dead, who at the very least should be allowed to rest in peace, he persecutes those who loved and lost them.
I do not feel bad for this man. I hate him with every ounce of passion that I can muster up in my heart. His rights are not being trampled on in Canada. We let him live here. He does not deserve any more than that. Maybe he doesn’t even deserve that. |
http://imprint.uwaterloo.ca/issues/020797/2Forum/Letters_to_the_Editor/letters02.html
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In these two cases I can't find much to disagree with the court.
Sorry, I just don't think people who are spiritual soul mates and in the same camp as murdering Islamofacists should be able to tell blatant lies. |
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Mr. Valentine
Joined: 30 Jan 2003 Total posts: 4161 Location: Nova Scotia Gender: Male
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| Posted: 12/ 29/ 03 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
--Pastor Martin Niemöller |
I'll entertain a hate crime argument for the case of the teacher, but not Zundel.
Denying the Holocaust is indeed a dissenting opinion. It may be an opinion which is factually incorrect, but it is indeed his opinion. To say that it incites hatred by denying a historical fact is too much of a stretch.
He may indeed hate Jews, but to deny the Holocaust does not necessarily prove he is inciting hatred against them. I haven't read anything of his, however!
_________________
"You, on the other hand, are clearly pro-al-Qaeda scum, since you have - quite knoiwingly [sic]- become an active agent of the enemy. If this were a just world, there would be swift punishment for people such as yourself, who spread lies and dissenssion [sic] and undermine the war effort." -Adam Yoshida on my pro-terrorist credentials, and endorsing a fascist worldview |
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Trouble
Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 12/ 29/ 03 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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I despise Zundel and Keegstra and other anti-semites, but I do see how the social-liberal left used this sort of gut reaction of most average people to sneak through this hate crime law, that will continue to be used to silence dissenting voices in a much bigger sense then holocaust denial.
It makes me sad that I see it clearly now only becaue of Bill C-250 and potential censorship of the Bible, because now that I understand the big picture in regards to hate crime legislation, I am totally against the group law concept in this regard.
I know that the Muslim Koran pulls in many pagan associations, because a secular Muslim friend told me the same. This makes sense just as Christianity practised today pulls in many pagan traditions from many European cultures.
I don't see any of this as hateful, or stating that Mohamed was a warmonger or warrior prophet etc. but I can now see how these hate crime laws are now being warped in so many ways to place law regarding groups above the individual.
Mr. Oblivious kept saying that this hate-crime law came about in the 1970's but I think it was much later, post Charter.
When was this hate-crime law put through...does anyone know?
_________________
"If Martin doesn't surprise us by becoming a principled leader, then at least we can be comforted that he is preparing his lips for a whole lot of American butt kissing."
--Greg McNeely
Last edited by Trouble on 12/ 29/ 03 8:13 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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| Stupidpinko Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Total posts: 221 Location: Here Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 12/ 29/ 03 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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On this issue, we will have to disagree. Significantly.
I don't agree that Zundel's case and Islamo-fascists are the same issue, at all. For one thing, Zundel has never counselled or incited violence, against anybody. Islamo-fascists, on the other hand, have their religion to tell them to murder people who disagree. It's in the Koran.
Secondly, since when is it a 'disgusting lie' worthy of jail to question history? Do we jail people for not agreeing that the communists killed 100 million people? Do we jail people for holding the belief that the earth is flat? Cripes, we don't even jail people for claiming that AIDS can be treated with drugs, and it's the government's fault homosexuals are dying from AIDS. A far worse lie, in my opinion.
Third, to my knowledge, Zundel has never been convicted of any crime. he is being jailed under a CSIS warrant, held without charge.
I know you don't agree with him, accepted, most people don't. But please consider that his freedom to believe whatever he chooses to believe is completely wrapped up with your freedom to be a Christian, and believe what you choose to believe. They are one and the same.
If you don't speak out against government sanctioned suppression of his right to believe whatever the hell he believes, as long as he doesn't contravene established laws of violence, slander, or incitement, you are signing your own jail warrant. Historically, Christianity has suffered much, and is still suffering today, from governments that believe it's their position and duty to jail and suppress heretical thinkers.
Let's not let it happen here.
_________________
There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than seperates us. Above all, there is a geniune revolutionary feeling, that is alive everywhere, except where there are Jewish marxists..Adolf Hitler |
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| Stupidpinko Joined: 08 Aug 2003 Total posts: 221 Location: Here Gender: Unknown
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| Posted: 12/ 29/ 03 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. valentine wrote;
| Quote: | First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
--Pastor Martin Niemöller |
This is not accurate. Pastor Niemolller's quote was:
| Quote: | | First, they came for the communists |
It is also a matter of historical fact that first the Nazi's came for the communists. (who they associated with Jews, but that's a different issue)
_________________
There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than seperates us. Above all, there is a geniune revolutionary feeling, that is alive everywhere, except where there are Jewish marxists..Adolf Hitler |
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